Dienekes wrote
<<It wasn't Olympias who made an "insane claim", but rather Alexander I, and his claim was accepted by the Hellanodikai at Olympia, who were the only authorities on Greekness in ancient times.>>
Olympias made claims of her lineages going back to Achilles,among the other one like Zeus being Alexander's real father ,Alexander simply repeated them or never quashed them,not unusual for the time or royalty in general perhaps,but dubious and fantasy facts if you accept them...and its very possible that Alexander paid off those people to accept him...so thats questionable to.
<<You are either joking or ignorant. The Greek language and culture persisted among the Greeks, not among the Romans, whose knowledge of Greek faded quickly after they were conquered by the barbarians. Indeed, in medieval times there were reputedly 6-7 people in the entire Latin West who could even understand Greek, hence the saying "It's all Greek to me".>>
Come on don't pull an attitude,were all having a cool discussion,and I'am loose. Besides thats more an anecdote than historical evidence you gave their.
You make it out like once the Greek language disappeared from the Greek Italians,so did their "Greekness" to...it must've took off and flew away like bird?!
The Greeks werent exempt from anything your describing either,they suffered from Multiple foreign incursions,invasions and conquests from Huns,Goths,Bulgars,Turks,so back down their. And Ancient Greek isnt the same as Modern Greek language. Languages are subject to outside influences and change at random for various reasons you know. Scholars are always at odds over etymology,and languages are still a mystery .
The Languages of the tribes of Italy are complex,however they spoke both Italic and Greek even before the rise of the Roman tribe and well after the fall of Western Rome,so your wrong.
Well what happened to Greece once Constantinople fell in the East to the barbarian Ottomans swept in? The Greeks lost themselves for a while to!
And I doubt the Italians fell into such a dramatic rut your implying up their...The Renaissance occurred in Sicily and Southern Italy which was the Celebration and remembrance of classical Latin and Greek culture and arts...while Greece and her (as you sorta claimed above a type of) continuous bliss was under a dark time spiral slump of her own .The Italians carried on the Traditions,not the contemporary Greeks. On top of this,the Eastern Roman(Byzantine) imprint as very much imbedded in Southern Italy/Sicily ,it did not take up and fly away either. Frederick II retained Greek as a spoken Language and Byzantine culture was also present ,even though Sicilian was the main language. Come on, don't talk nonsense.
Heck even the Arabs had to reteach both the Italians and Greeks alot of our own things,as they held onto alot of what the Romans taught them,and thats a fact to.
Let me back track for a moment :
How would I be ignorant though? The Romans did not wipe out the Greek language or Culture,which was well within their power to do so,and often they did such things,nor did they instill their own language which was supposedly only Latin and Latiness onto the Greeks.In fact they continued it and encouraged it to prosper. Rome simply allowed it to survive on, that's the major difference. Greek culture didn't magically persist onwards as you make be.
An important fact you dont realize is ,the Romans themselves where bi-Lingual ,much of their own major writings was in Greek rather than Latin even before they invaded Greece.So anything "Greek" was in no way shape or form "Alien" to the Latin Romans contrary to modern misconceptions .
The myth of the Latin West and Greek East of Middle Age Europe,was just that,it was infact partly fabricated by the Holy Roman Emperor Charlemagne,a Germanic Frank who hated the Eastern Empire. Much of Italy still spoke Greek even at that time period.
Durnisi even mentioned Messina in the 1500's.
<<Indeed, the modern Greeks are descendants of the medieval Romans who were Greek speaking. It was a peculiar turn of events that the heirs of the Roman Empire were the Greeks and not the natives of central Italy.>>
That would mean something only if use the modern invented statehood of Greece as your pedestal and a some nationalistic gloat.The Eastern Roman Empire was in Anatolia not the Greek peninsula(i.e Greece) alone.
As I mentioned above the ancient Italians where Bi-Lingual. The Greek Languages didnt magically disappear from Italy,in fact its still around and survived in certain parts of Southern Italy/Sicily to this day.
Your again oversimplifying and pushing something I'am not quite sure what it is. The Eastern Roman Empire,did not care whether you where Greek or Italian,that was probably nothing more than simply meaningless geography to them,they did not see nor care of any differences if their was any. Their was massive immigrations from both lands during that time frame.To them,they where the same.The Eastern Romans infact reclaimed Italy and made Sicily their Capital,and had they kept it their ,the Roman Empire wouldve survived instead of leaving it in Anatolia where it collapsed.
<<Well, my interest is in determining historic and prehistoric migrations. As I have mentioned above, Sicilians do have Greek ancestry, but they are not Greek because they have been cut off from the Greek nation.>>
The Greek Nation is a modern invention.Non-existent in the Ancient world,theirs a big difference to what your talking about and alluding to.
<<As I mentioned above, it is neither biology nor culture alone which defines Greekness, but rather
both common ancestry and common culture.
You are genetically more descended from Greeks than, say, Spaniards, or Swedes are. Genetics alone does not suffice to make you Greek.
And, indeed you are similar to Turks and Bulgarians, because like them you have some Greek ancestry, but speak a foreign language that replaced Greek. [/quote]>>
Thats your concept of Greekness,and maybe it would work if your applying for Citizenship and looking to being recognized as so-called"True Greek" before the entire Greek country(similar like Alexander did)...If you have Greek blood and historical/ancestral connection then your Greek,its that simple. I don't careless of any little nit pick and cranny to gain national acceptance through Himmler's office criteria .
Your a modern Greek,and I'am Magna-Grecian/Greco-Roman aka Modern Sicilian, is all the difference in actuality . We share the same Achaean Ancestors,both had our Roman-Latin influence and it effected us in different ways...
