|
Post by pconroy on Aug 12, 2004 10:27:01 GMT -5
This is just like saying that you don't understand how can there be blond people at a place without Finnish or Swedish admixture. Springa, you totally missed my point, I never said that there were no red-haired Jews, Arabs, Copts or Berbers, I was trying to explain how the percentage of red-haired was supposedly increasing in the population!!I mentioned that women may be dying their hair red more - which happens here in the US. The only other explanation would be people with red-hair mixing with the Israeli population. Of course I forgot that the latter may actually be happening - as according to some estimates there are now over 1.5 Russian Jews in Israel, most arrived in the last few decades. Russian Jews are decidedly more red-haired than average, as they absorbed the genes from the Alans/Avars by way of the Khazars. So that would be an alternate explanation, to just fashion trends.
|
|
|
Post by pconroy on Aug 12, 2004 10:31:07 GMT -5
Achilles and Meneleus both had red hair! Ramses the Great was a redhead.A number of Sicilians have redhair as wel as the ancient Egpytians. Red Hair was seen as a sign of war and often as evil but yet powerful. The Egyptian God "Set" had redhair. something interesting about the jews: I foreget who it was, but someone in the bible was a fierce Warrior with red hair,and was caste out and lived in a faraway land.When the Romans came the jew beleived the Roman to be his decendants and vengence cause of their red capes and banners. Crimson, read my post you missed my point. I am fully aware of red-headed people in these areas, and could point out a few more like the famous Barbarossa Brothers - who were of Greek/Turkish descent
|
|
|
Post by Springa on Aug 12, 2004 11:45:12 GMT -5
You completely missed my point too. Where have I said that? I said the opposite exactly. You said that they do exist in the middle east, but that you don't see how their numbers can be growing there without another people's genetic influence (the Scots for instance). That was understood. And I replied that it's not like that. There are red heads there because they've always existed there, no matter how small their numbers were. The gene that causes red hair is present in all caucasian subraces and will come up in all of them from time to time. Arabs, Jews, Berbers or any caucasian group will have a certain ammount of red heads among them (as well as blonds), and that's NOT because of interbreeding with celtic, northern european, scottish, nordic, ashkenazi, Yanomami, zulu or any other type of people. As you put it, the Israelis have had an influx of Russians, and the Ashkenazis themselves are part northern or eastern European. But apart from them, none of the other people in the Middle East or Maghreb have had any substantial recent influx of foreign ellements. So the red heads there come from themselves, and if their numbers are growing there as well, it's probably because of some "internal" reason, not because of interbreeding. Now that was my point. Sorry if I wasn't clear. Springa, you totally missed my point, I never said that there were no red-haired Jews, Arabs, Copts or Berbers, I was trying to explain how the percentage of red-haired was supposedly increasing in the population!!I mentioned that women may be dying their hair red more - which happens here in the US. The only other explanation would be people with red-hair mixing with the Israeli population. Of course I forgot that the latter may actually be happening - as according to some estimates there are now over 1.5 Russian Jews in Israel, most arrived in the last few decades. Russian Jews are decidedly more red-haired than average, as they absorbed the genes from the Alans/Avars by way of the Khazars. So that would be an alternate explanation, to just fashion trends.
|
|
|
Post by pconroy on Aug 12, 2004 11:54:10 GMT -5
You said that they do exist in the middle east I am fully aware that they are present in the area in very small amounts - mostly as other posts have mentioned, as warriors or kings. How do you explain the supposed increasing amounts of red-hair in all Jewish populations - explain that!
|
|
|
Post by pconroy on Aug 12, 2004 14:45:58 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by pconroy on Aug 12, 2004 15:11:17 GMT -5
Other possible origins of some red-haired jews - they admixed with the Scots in Poland! It seems the Scots in Poland were mostly involved in business as traders and peddlers - both typical occupations of some Jews: www.electricscotland.com/history/prussia/part1.htmCould this explain the frequency of New York Jews with typical Scottish names like Miller and Gordon - just speculation?!
|
|
|
Post by Melnorme on Aug 12, 2004 15:14:55 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Melnorme on Aug 12, 2004 15:18:28 GMT -5
How do you explain the supposed increasing amounts of red-hair in all Jewish populations - explain that! Jews aren't the only example of 'recessive traits' appearing in a greater extent in a small population. In the Middle East, genetic isolates like the Druze or Samaritans are lighter-pigmented than the mainstream Arabs.
|
|
|
Post by eufrenio on Aug 12, 2004 16:01:52 GMT -5
Jews aren't the only example of 'recessive traits' appearing in a greater extent in a small population. In the Middle East, genetic isolates like the Druze or Samaritans are lighter-pigmented than the mainstream Arabs. Could inbreeding also be an explanation for the light pigmentation of Rif Kabyles?
|
|
|
Post by pconroy on Aug 12, 2004 16:18:46 GMT -5
Jews aren't the only example of 'recessive traits' appearing in a greater extent in a small population. In the Middle East, genetic isolates like the Druze or Samaritans are lighter-pigmented than the mainstream Arabs. Mel, I notice that you seem to use Arab and Middle Eastern as being almost synonymous, whereas I always consider that Middle Easterners historically contained a number of different group, which were then Arabized - this accounts for different geographically clustered phenotypes. I'd imagine that Jews were only Arabized to a minimal extent, hence their somewhat lighter appearance than the usually darker Arabs - that and the Askenazi influx. But in general, don't genetic studies suggest that the Jews were predominantly formed by Caananites (mtDNA) who were invaded by and admixed with tribes from Northern Syria/Anatolia (Y DNA)? Therefore this would suggest that they always were slightly lighter than their neighbours, who would have been more like the native Caananites?
|
|
|
Post by Crimson Guard on Aug 12, 2004 16:20:09 GMT -5
Pconroy!
My only point was and is that Red hair has been very common in and around the Mediterranean world for 1000's of years.
And has nothing to do with a certain group of people!
|
|
|
Post by Melnorme on Aug 12, 2004 16:32:13 GMT -5
Mel, I notice that you seem to use Arab and Middle Eastern as being almost synonymous, whereas I always consider that Middle Easterners historically contained a number of different group, which were then Arabized - this accounts for different geographically clustered phenotypes. I'd imagine that Jews were only Arabized to a minimal extent, hence their somewhat lighter appearance than the usually darker Arabs - that and the Askenazi influx. When I say Arab, I mean the mainstream Arabic-speaking Muslims who live in the vicinity of the Druze/Samaritans/whoever. It's true that admixture with Arabians may have had an effect, though. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11992266Population genetics, especially mtDNA, can't ( yet ) reliably trace ancestry to such specific regions ( 'Syria', 'Canaan' ). Anyway, the original Judean Jews are long gone, so no current study could confirm this with absolute certainty in any case. Hopefully an "archaeogeneticist" will get his hands on some old skeletons and change that.
|
|
|
Post by k5125 on Aug 13, 2004 23:20:30 GMT -5
Here is a picture of one of Saddam Hussein's henchmen, Issat Ibrahim Al-Duri, and not only does he have red hair, but also freckles and fair skin, it seems: I had thought that only Ashkenazi Jews had red hair - supposedly from the Khazars, by way of the Alans/Avars, an Iranic groups from North Caucuses/Ukraine - comments? I have seen a slight to moderate portion of sephardi jews from Turkey who have red hair. Some Iraqi Jews have red hair too I have seen.
|
|
|
Post by k5125 on Aug 13, 2004 23:22:53 GMT -5
I don't think the Khazars had a heavy influence on ashkenazic jews either, although its possible there was some intermixing.
But I don't think red hair is from khazars. I think its somewhat common in northern middle easterners anyway.
And there are a lot of ashkenazic jews with black hair.
|
|
|
Post by chairface on Aug 24, 2004 23:23:22 GMT -5
So what racial types are descendants of the "Real" Semites? My guesses are Dinaric, Armenoid, Mediterranean, and Irano-Afgan.
|
|