Islam, a psychopathic and dangerous religion.

[Mazigh]

eufrenio said:

equilibrium said:

Man, give him a chance. It would be a great thing if more and more muslims leave their religion. Anyway, if he's psychologically stable and smart, he wouldn't return to Islam. Well, it's just my hope.

Why is it you want to change muslims, presumably to turn them into atheists? I have no problem with Islam, as long as Muslims remain in their historic lands. I don´t want Muslims around me, but they´re free to worship Allah in their countries for all I care.

Are you afraid of me ?
To be honest, we should say "all the gods are dangerous creminals" or "all the gods are kind fathers".

the men created the god, so all the gods are mirrors of the men. and all the men are from the same nature.

I agree that some religions are more dangerous than the other ones, but that never was an indicator for the human behaviours.

[DeLacroix]

Man, I hate ridiculizing other people's faith, but you just looking for it, by posting pseudo-scientific explanations, made by two Charlatans Harun Yahaya and Maurice Bucaille
. You're talking about anti-islamic websites, but yet don't talk about your references and your websites, that is, islamic propagandist websites, and of course, the greatest of all of them, Harun Yahya's website. At least those "anti-islamic" websites you're talking about, come with logical and rationalist arguments (and that annoys you and other people like you), while your favorite ones, are all full with lies, "concordance", and propaganda. So let's take a look at your "koranic highly scientific miracles".

1) First of all, you're a liar !

The Surats are different depending on who, translated them, and to what kind of public (muslim or non-muslim), it is directed to ---->

Your version:--->YusufAli* [al-Anbiya' 21:33] It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course.

*please, next time, include the name of the translator.

2nd version--->(Shakir) [al-Anbiya' 21:33]
"And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres."

3rd version---->Pikthall [al-Anbiya' 21:33] And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit

Unfortunatly I don't know anything about arabic language, but, I give the arabic-speaking dodonites among us, the opportunity to have their own idea, and tell us about their own interpretation. (go to surat 33)---->
www.submission.org/efarsi/arabic/sura21.html

Yusuf Ali and shakir clearly tried going further than the original text, why?. Pickthall translation is the more closer to the original text It's obvious, don't you think Syriano?

Let's see what Muhammad thinks about this--->

Bukhari 4.421
Narrated Abu Dhar:
The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah.


Strange!, Muhammad thought that the sun goes to a rest place and take the permission of Allah, to rise again.


Here is another verse from Quran, that makes the things even worse for your dellusions, Syriano.

YusufAli [36.39] And the Moon We have measured for her mansions (to traverse) till she returns like the old (and withered) lower part of date-stalk.
It's clear that according to the Qu'ran, the moon had places it came to every night.
What does the Qu'ran think about the sun?
YusufAli [18.86] Until when he reached the setting of the sun He found it set in a spring of murky water: …
Pickthall [18.86] Till, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, …
Why did Yusuf ali skip "place"? Here is another example of his dishonesty.
YusufAli [18.90] Until when he came to the rising of the sun he found it rising on a people for whom We had provided no covering protection against the sun.
Pickthall [18.90] Till, when he reached the rising place of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had appointed no helper therefrom
Ask yoursel syriano, what people is muhammad/Allah talking about? who live in the rising place of the sun, and who have no protection against the sun (because of Allah's will)?

Conclusion: Muhammad/Allah clearly thought, that the sun and the moon, have places, where they set in, and raise from. So it's easy to imagine that people of that epoch, thought that the sun and the moon, raised from a place, and moved (the orbit according to the Qu'ran) to another place. Be honest Syriano.




Will continue .......

[DeLacroix]

2)Beside being a liar, you copy articles from your islamic websites, without reading them and analyzing their logic and coherence, you just read the title "Universe expansion in the Quran" and shout Allah Akbar!

Al- Quran 51:47

YUSUFALI:"With the power and skill Did We construct The Firmament: For it is We Who create The vastness of Space."
PICKTHAL: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
SHAKIR: And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample

Another problem here, the verses differ depending on the translator. None among the above mentioned translators gives the slightest idea of an ongoing expansion of the universe.In fact, none of them refers to the “universe” at all, but to the heavens or firmament
Also, according to Dr. Ali Sina the word used here is moosiAAoona which drives from word vaseun. It means vast. It has nothing to do with expanding. When one says al rezwano vaseun it refers, 'the garden is vast'. It does not mean that the garden is expanding. Any Arab standing in the clear nights of the desert could lookup at the sky and see that it was vast. Muhammad is stating the obvious. There is no scientific miracle or prophecy in this.
The cause of the expansion of the universe is scientifically known from Modern High Energy Astrophysics, known as the theory of inflation. The theory is guided by Einstein's mathematical theory of general relativity about the physical universe. These are all characterized, at any instant in cosmological history, by mathematically- infinite space-like surfaces (3-d space in other words). In this (open) model of the universe, everything is expanding in the same sense that the points on a balloon's surface move away from all other points as the balloon is inflated. General Relativity says that for infinite universes, the same kind of expansion occurs. Inflationary cosmology adds to this by saying that we live in a small pocket of some vaster space-time. This pocked emerged from a tiny patch in the primordial space-time and inflated to a vast size mentioning the facts of origin and expanding nature of Universe which is under publication in a book format).
From the above analysis it should be clear that nothing in those Qur'anic verses come any close to what an expansion of universe really means. Those who want to relate the verse with expansion of universe, do this just by their wishful interpretation or favourable twist

Will continue.....

[DeLacroix]

Syriano wrote:

Al- Quran 79:30

"And the earth, moreover, Hath He made egg shaped."


The Arabic word for egg here is dahaha, which means an ostrich-egg. The shape of an ostrich-egg resembles the geo-spherical shape of the earth. Thus the Qur�aan correctly describes the shape of the earth, though the prevalent notion when the Qur�aan was revealed was that the earth is flat.

etc

notice Sir Francis Drake was the first person who proved that the earth is spherical when he sailed around it in 1597.


I mean how can mohammad make up these things back then?


Berter, you are a reasonable man, and I trust your opinion.

do you believe mohammad could have made all these things up during his time?
you probably know his conditions

3)I feel sorry for you, you're easily influenced by liars, and try to spread their lies on here

As I don't understand arabic, I took the following article from a website, and I invite all those who speak classic arabic, to read the original verse. and tell us if Quran says "egg-shaped"




40- In the verse 79:30 it is stated that the Earth is egg shape. Eggs are spherical. How Muhammad knew this 1400 years ago?



The above verse reads:

Waal-arda baAAda thalika dahaha

It means (word by word):

And the Earth after that was spread.

Hear are the three famous translations.

079.030
YUSUFALI: And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse);
PICKTHAL: And after that He spread the earth,
SHAKIR: And the earth, He expanded it after that.

Egg in Arabic is “al baiza”. There is no similarity between the two words.

In Surah 78: 6 it says:

Alam najAAali al-arda mihadan

Meaning:

Have we not made the earth like a bed?

078.006
YUSUFALI: Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse,
PICKTHAL: Have We not made the earth an expanse,
SHAKIR: Have We not made the earth an even expanse?

Arabs used to spread their mattresses (beds) on the floor and sleep on it during the night. In the above verse Muhammad is comparing the Earth to a bed (Mihad) which is spread out. Therefore the translation of the three most reliable interpreters of Quran is correct.

I think this “egg story” is one of the lies of Rashad Khalifa. I heard that from other submitters. Even so, Earth is not like an egg and an egg is not spherical.

Muslims are just desperate to fool themselves and any lie will do.

[DeLacroix]

Syriano, may I rejoice with this victory? NO, I'm gonna put some miracles of the Quran, and some enlightening Hadiths, and wait for your refutation

Will continue........ (it takes time to gather a minimum of Islamic "bêtises").

[syriano]

lol

take it easy laudabilis
first yes you are right that I don't check my sources very good as I am busy (I am supposed to be writing assignment now), so I use the first thing that pops up.
(am not saying they are wrong though)


ok give me some time and I'll look into this or try to give it to someone who knows better. I am not a scholar and I said this before.

ok look, so you are claiming all these are errors in the Quran right?
if I prove one to be wrong (which ever you want), can I skip the rest?
I am very busy really to look for all of this

[DeLacroix]

Take your time, I'm not impatient about your refutation (if there is one of course ;D), just don't skip anything, cause it will be an insult to me, and a dishonesty from you. You know, I haven't much time either, but yet, I sacrificed some of it, to search deeply into this matter. So please, take your time, and if you have nothing to say, just don't spread lies anymore.

[syriano]

first I don't need to research for my self.
I am convinced.
second I am not doing it for you, you'll never be convinsed. at the end alot of things in religion(any) are a matter of perception, which can't be proven literally. However knowledge in classical Arabic is essential. it's important to note how most of the conflict is due to the translation ***

if I try to show stuff, then probably for the board (even though most don't give a damn about what I say anyways)

_____

[18.86] Until when he reached the setting of the sun He found it set in a spring of murky water:

***Critics of this verse should be aware that the Qur'�n is not descriptive prose, and the words of the Qur'�n is of high poetical eloquence, something which the Bible is not able to claim. Since the beauty of the Qur'�n is in its poetical nature, therefore it is only natural that the Qur'�n uses emphatic expressions to describe something like a "sunset". Keep in mind that the Qur'�n is in poetical prose and is meant to be a challenge to the pagan Arabs in Mecca who prided themselves as writers of good poetry. Those neophytes who like to use this verse as a stick to beat Islam with should try to study the Arabian Literature and History of that period before coming up with silly conclusions.

"Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."

This English translation was taken from A. Yusuf Ali. Let us analyse the verse part by part.

"Until, when he reached the setting of the sun...": The translation of this part of the verse does not say that Zul-Qarnain reached the place where the sun sets LITERALLY, rather it means here that Zul-Qarnain was facing the direction in which the sun is setting. The "setting of the sun," is an Arabic idiom meaning 'the western-most point' of his expedition. However, in general, idioms should not be literally translated.

"...he found it set in a spring of murky water": The Qur'�n is obviously describing what Dhul-Qarnain saw. What Dhul-Qarnain saw was the image of the sun setting in a dark body of water. Since the Qur'�n is clearly describing this from Dhul-Qarnain's direct point of view (the Qur'�n is quite explicit here in doing that), there is in fact no problem with the description of what Dhul-Qarnain saw. Of course the Critic is right when he says that "the sun does not set in a spring of murky water", but try standing at a beach during the time when the sun is about to set and the Critic would be able to see the sun "entering" the sea far in the horizon. This therefore gives us the conclusion that Dhul-Qarnain was somewhere west and by a large body of water, possibly the sea.

Therefore, it is clear the verse says that Dhul-Qarnain went west and saw the sun setting over the horizon so that it looked to him as though it was setting into the sea, which is murky-looking. Probably the Critic have never stood by on the beach and observe the sun set.

For further clarification of our explanation, we reproduce two other translations of the same verse by M. M. Pickthall and Shakir.

Translation by M. M. Pickthall:

Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness. (Qur'�n, 18:86)

Translation by Shakir:

Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea, and found by it a people. We said: 'O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit.' (Qur'�n, 18:86)

We can see that the general agreement of the translations of this verse is that Zul-Qarnain saw the sun setting into the horizon that it looks like it is setting into a body of water (sea) that looks murky-looking. That this verse was never taken literally was not alien in the understanding of the early commentators.

In his famous commentary known as Al-Game' Le Ahkam-el-Qur'�n, Imam Al-Qurtubi (died 671 AH/1273 CE) wrote about this verse:

It is not meant by reaching the rising or setting of the sun that he reached its body and touched it because it runs in the sky around the earth without touching it and it is too great to enter any spring on earth. It is so much larger than earth. But it is meant that he reached the end of populated land east and west, so he found it - according to his vision - setting in a spring of a murky water like we watch it in smooth land as if it enters inside the land. That is why He said, "he found it rising on a people for whom we had provided no covering protection against the sun." (Holy Qur'�n 18:90) and did not mean that it touches or adheres to them; but they are the first to rise on. Probably this spring is a part of the sea and the sun sets behind, with or at it, so the proposition takes the place of an adjective and God knows best.

Imam Fakhr-ud-Deen Ar-Razi wrote in his commentary on the same verse, that

When Zul-Qarnain reached the furthest west and no populated land was left, he found the sun as if it sets in a dark spring, but it is not in reality. The same when sea traveler sees the sun as if it sets in the sea if he cannot see the shore while in reality it sets behind the sea. (At-Tafsir-ul-Kabeer by Ar-Razi, Vol. 21, p. 166)

Imam Ibn Kathir (701-774 AH/1302-1373 CE) wrote in his commentary about this verse, that

"Until, when he reached the setting of the sun" means he followed a certain way till he reached the furthest land he could go from the west. As for reaching the setting of the sun in the sky, it is impossible. What narrators and story tellers say that he walked for a period of time in earth while the sun was setting behind him is unreal, and most of it is from myths of People of the Book and inventions of their liars. "he found it set in a spring of murky water" means he saw the sun according to his vision setting in the ocean and this is the same with everyone ending to the shore seeing as if the sun sets inside it (i.e. the ocean). (Tafsir-ul-Qur'�n Al-'Azeem by Ibn Kathir, Vol. 5, p. 120)

And finally, to strengthen our observation that the part of the verse above is indeed poetical in nature and that the Qur'�n had never meant the statement to be "scientific", let us now see a picture of the sun setting in the horizon.

The sun setting in 'murky' water

Thus, it is clear to us that the above-mentioned verse is only considered "unscientific" if we would also consider that similar emphatically-used phrases such as "Japan, the land of the rising sun" or "Sabah, the land beneath the wind" to be "unscientific" as well.

_____________________

and most of your question are in the same regard

I really can't look for answers everytime you bombard me with your "research" (ie copy/paste material)
if you really are intrested in research, then do your own...

[DeLacroix]

syriano said:

first I don't need to research for my self.
I am convinced.
second I am not doing it for you, you'll never be convinsed. at the end alot of things in religion(any) are a matter of perception, which can't be proven literally.

if I try to do it, then probably for the board (even though most don't give a damn about what I say anyways)

so again I'll try to look at one or two just to prove you wrong

It is no secret that faith blinds and the believer cannot see anything wrong with the object of his or her belief. Don't worry Syriano, I'm here just to debate, not to make propaganda.

[syriano]

sadly, I am not the right person to debate religion with. my knowledge is very limited (esp. these minor things) (yet I am convinced, because I get the essence of religion)

you can do that online, there are plenty of places that offer to answer questions...

www.faithfreedom.com/ali_sina_exposed/quranscience1.html

[DeLacroix]

Ok, your copy/paste is simply doing, what most muslim clerics do, when they're embarassed by incoherences in the Quran, that is, saying that it's just a metaphor, or just a poetic verse. But actually, it contradicts the Quran's repeated claims to be a "clear book" (O followers of the Book! indeed Our Messenger has come to you making clear to you much of what you concealed of the Book and passing over much; indeed, there has come to you light and a clear Book from Allah), "easy to understand” (And We have made (this Scripture) easy in thy language only that they may heed. ), "explained in detail" ("Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt. ), "conveyed clearly" (And when Our clear revelations are recited unto them, they who look not for the meeting with Us say: Bring a Lecture other than this, or change it. Say (O Muhammad): It is not for me to change it of my accord. I only follow that which is inspired in me. Lo! if I disobey my Lord I fear the retribution of an awful Day. ) and finally, with “no doubt” (This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil). )

Yet muslims, go on arguing that Quran Quran is a secret that needs to be interpreted, lol so they can fool people. Honestly, Syriano, this "Oh it's just a poetic parable, metaphor, image, etc...", makes no sense, and proves the weakness of Quran.

Ok tell me if this hadith is just metaphor, and shouldn't be interpreted literally.

Bukhari 4.421
Narrated Abu Dhar:
The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah.

Anyway, I don't ask you to refute what it's written above, or to debate this subject. Just don't spread lies anymore, and keep your faith in private. Ciao.

[DeLacroix]

you can do that online, there are plenty of places that offer to answer questions...

www.faithfreedom.com/ali_sina_exposed/quranscience1.htm

Faithfreedom.com? Are you joking? the webmaster of this website, has been ridiculized. Please read the debate, between, this individual, and Dr. ali Sina, you'll have a laugh, at least, if you're smart enough.


Faithfreedom.com is a site exclusively created to prove us wrong.

Here are the debates I had with them. Unfortunately they stopped debating. (from FFI.org)
www.faithfreedom.org/debates/ff_com.htm

Anyway, FF.com isn't a solid Website, and its webmaster, is just a plain joke. Maybe you should read some serious debates, like the one with Grand Ayatollah Montazeri.

Here is the link---> www.faithfreedom.org/debates/montazeri.htm

[syriano]

but doesn't the explenation make sense though?
I mean I am sure Mohammad could have came up with a better "lie" than the sun hidding in a spring if he wanted to (esp with the quality of the other stuff "he made up")

anyways I'll try to look into this stuff later maybe in 2 weeks when I have more time..

about the hadith, I have to look into too..

this is some interesting info about the hadith tellers; (I am not saying hadiths are wrong though)

__________________

Dr. Wadud finds it noteworthy that the Six Collections that are said to be the utterance of the prophet (s.a.s.), but none of those who collected them was an Arab: they are all Persians. There was no written recorded of what was collected. The collections were made 250 years after the death of prohpet (s.a.s.) depending on what was verbally related by the people all around.

The chart below adapted from Dr. Wadud’s work. (p. 53), shows that Muhammad ibn Ismail al-Bukhari, Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj al-Qushayri, Muhammad ibn Isa at-Tirmidhi, Abu Da’ud as-Sijistani, Muhammed ibn Majah and Ahmad ibn Shu’ayb an-Nasai were all residents of Persia:

Name ofComposer Resident of Died in Year HadithsCollected Hadiths Published
Al-Bukhari Bokhara 260 A.H. 600,000 2,762
Muslim Neshapur 261 A.H. 300,000 4,348
Tirmidhi Tirmaz 279 A.H. 300,000 3,115
Abu Da’ud Sistan 275 A.H. 500,000 4,800
Ibn Maja Qazveen 273 A.H. 400,000 4,000
Nasai Village inKhurasan 303 A.H. 200,000 4,321

One more observation by Dr. Wadud:

[Hadiths} are supposed to be the collection of the sayings and deeds of the Rasool. But had the Rasool himself taken any step to make them a part of “Deen”? Did he try to preserve them as he did in the case of the Qur’an? The answer is that he did not take any step towards the preservation of anything except the Qur’an. He never asked the people to note down all that he said, he never asked them to learn his sayings by heart. He never tried to satisfy himself, whether they remembered all that he said correctly. In fact he never made any arrangement for the safe preservation of his own sayings for the future. (p.17)

______________________________________


btw, I want to ask you.
do you know any muslim scholars that left Islam? (I am realy wondering, not a chalange)
can you look into it?

finally are you athiest?

[syriano]

equilibrium said:

you can do that online, there are plenty of places that offer to answer questions...

www.faithfreedom.com/ali_sina_exposed/quranscience1.htm

Faithfreedom.com? Are you joking? the webmaster of this website, has been ridiculized. Please read the debate, between, this individual, and Dr. ali Sina, you'll have a laugh, at least, if you're smart enough.


Faithfreedom.com is a site exclusively created to prove us wrong.

Here are the debates I had with them. Unfortunately they stopped debating. (from FFI.org)
www.faithfreedom.org/debates/ff_com.htm

Anyway, FF.com isn't a solid Website, and its webmaster, is just a plain joke. Maybe you should read some serious debates, like the one with Grand Ayatollah Montazeri.

Here is the link---> www.faithfreedom.org/debates/montazeri.htm

some other websites claim that they indeed cornered ali sina, but he never shows it or posted the content on his website

www.examinethetruth.com/another_test_for_Ali_Sina.htm
thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=120&page=0
www.dar-es-salaam.org/web/ali.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/rebuttaltoalisina8.htm
..

forget about them for a second really (I am in no position to read all of this)
can you answer my question in the previous post?

[DeLacroix]

syriano said:

equilibrium said:

Faithfreedom.com? Are you joking? the webmaster of this website, has been ridiculized. Please read the debate, between, this individual, and Dr. ali Sina, you'll have a laugh, at least, if you're smart enough.


Faithfreedom.com is a site exclusively created to prove us wrong.

Here are the debates I had with them. Unfortunately they stopped debating. (from FFI.org)
www.faithfreedom.org/debates/ff_com.htm

Anyway, FF.com isn't a solid Website, and its webmaster, is just a plain joke. Maybe you should read some serious debates, like the one with Grand Ayatollah Montazeri.

Here is the link---> www.faithfreedom.org/debates/montazeri.htm

some other websites claim that they indeed cornered ali sina, but he never shows it or posted the content on his website

forget about them for a second
can you answer my question in the previous post?

Impossible, since the debates are generally made on public forums, and thus, no one can hide the content of the debate. But yes, many islamic websites dream about "cornering" Ali Sina. Anyway, if you're smart enough, you have just to read the debates, and try to figure out, which arguments sound more logical and coherent. But of course, before doing this, one has to read them from an objective angle. I know you're scared to read them, but just try. You know, when I started to read about Islam, I wasn't biased against it, I just heard politicians saying that Islam was a religion of peace, so I begun to make researches about Islam, to find an explanation, about all the things happening in the world. My question was, if Islam is really a religion of peace like our P.correct politicians love to say, why there are so much horror committed in the world, on behalf of Islam? After months of searchings, I found out the obvious explanation. So don't think I'm just one of those occidentals who know nothing about Islam and attack it just for the sake of attacking this religion.


I'll respond to your post later (I gotta disconnect now)