Why Anti-Semitism?

[nockwasright]

Apart from the absurdity of making the degree of Middle Eastern look of Israelian Jews an argument relevant to legitimacy of Israel and even more to his fate, I remember Ephraim Kishon joking that the first generation of Israeli born citizens looked exactly as Hitler Youth should have, only a little bit fairer headed.

[k5125]

nockwasright said:

Apart from the absurdity of making the degree of Middle Eastern look of Israelian Jews an argument relevant to legitimacy of Israel and even more to his fate, I remember Ephraim Kishon joking that the first generation of Israeli born citizens looked exactly as Hitler Youth should have, only a little bit fairer headed.

Its not absurd to attempt to make Israelis into Europeans and to then use that as some sort of reason to erase the legitimacy of Israel?

Yet when I post pictures of middle eastern looking israelis its automatically branded "aburd" and invalid?

[nockwasright]

k5125 said:

Its not absurd to attempt to make Israelis into Europeans and to then use that as some sort of reason to erase the legitimacy of Israel?

Yet when I post pictures of middle eastern looking israelis its automatically branded "aburd" and invalid?

I was saying it IS absurd. Even if all Israelis looked as Boris Becker it would be completely non relevant.

I just said that source (you would know Kishon) saw a more blonde Israel than you do. Kishon is old, maybe the later immigrants were darker.

[k5125]

The majority of even Israel's founding generation was not blond.

The supposed ruling "ashkenazi elite."

[Yankel]

humantag said:

I spent ten years in NYC and can testify to the fact that Jews are rarely as dark as Italians and often as pale as Irishmen . Most recent DNA studies of Ashkenazi populations suggest they are in general far more European than 'middle eastern'.

Can you name one study that concludes this? You can't, because they all conclude the opposite... I just had to call you out on your bs, the rest of your reply doesn't merit a response.

Where'd you stay? Judging from your 'observation', I'd say Crown Heights is out of the question.

[humantag]

Flowin said:

Can you name one study that concludes this? You can't, because they all conclude the opposite... I just had to call you out on your bs, the rest of your reply doesn't merit a response.

See citation below. I see that in my original comments I said most studies suggest that (Askhkenazi) Jews are far more European than Middle Eastern. Well, this is a bit overstated - I should have said most studies suggest that they are at least as European as they are Middle Eastern (as the citation below suggests).

I think anyone being honest would have to concede that the precise nature of Ashkenazi origins remains mysterious. Clearly they have both European and Middle Eastern roots, but by in large they (Ashkenazis) look more European than Middle Eastern.

A more measured response you'll not get from me

By the way, could you address the issue I raised earlier? How can Jews simultaneously argue that they represent a more or less homogenous ethnic group of Middle Eastern origin dating to Biblical times, and at the same time argue that Judaism is not a racially exclusive religion and that Jews of all hues exist in healthy numbers? There is an obvious tension if not necessary mutual exclusion between these two positions and I have never received a response to this question. I await your response but will not hold my breath.

Flowin said:

Where'd you stay? Judging from your 'observation', I'd say Crown Heights is out of the question.

When I say NYC I mean Manhattan - I actually have lived most of my life within the 5 boros of NYC.

I worked in midtown Manhattan (not far from Madison Square Garden) and Downtown Manhattan (not far from what is now Ground Zero) over a period of ten years. I subsequently have worked in New Jersey, which also has a healthy Jewish population. I grew up in Staten Island - I would say conservatively that one third of the people I grew up with were Jews (almost entirely Ashkenazi), and about 75% of the people I worked with in Manhattan were Jews (again, overwhelmingly Ashkenazi).

Few cliches are as worn and unconvincing as 'some of my best friends are...'. Nevertheless, it is a fact (more a consequence of my local demographics than anything else) that some of my best friends are Jewish. I have dated many Jewish women. If you want to say I'm an antisemite, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Perhaps by your sense of the term I am. I do not regard myself as an anti-semite, nor do any of the many Jews that I have known (and at times argued with over issues like these). Trust me, they'd let me know if they did. I have known some Jews (not many) who could be characterized as 'anti-goyites' (to possibly coin a phrase).

I will be honest - I do have a problem with certain aspects of Jewish religion and tradition. (It should be noted that I have problems with ALL organized religion). I find Zionism and the idea of a Chosen people and all that 'torchlight for the nations' crap obnoxious, and have always been disturbed by Judaism's ethnically exclusive character (though I feel this is more a matter of faith on their part than fact). I do not hate Jewish people. I would welcome them into my family - could care less.

Now back to the original issue. While there are a fair number of Jews (Ashkenazi) who could readily 'pass' for Italian or even Sicilian, most are notably paler. When people meet an Italian with blonde hair/blue eyes or red hair/green eyes in NYC (yes, there are a fair number of these as well ), they are invariably surprised that a person with such coloring could be an Italian, and often ask 'are you part Irish?' or some such. Jews with such coloring rarely provoke such reactions as they are so commonplace.

-----------------------------------------
[see link following excerpt ]
Nicholas Wade. "In DNA, New Clues to Jewish Roots." The New York Times (May 14, 2002): F1 (col. 1). Excerpts:

It is possible, Dr. Goldstein said, that the Ashkenazic community is a mosaic of separate populations formed the same way as the others.... 'The authors are correct in saying the historical origins of most Jewish communities are unknown,' Dr. [Shaye] Cohen [of Harvard University] said. 'Not only the little ones like in India, but even the mainstream Ashkenazic culture from which most American Jews descend.'.... If the founding mothers of most Jewish communities were local, that could explain why Jews in each country tend to resemble their host community physically while the origins of their Jewish founding fathers may explain the aspects the communities have in common, Dr. Cohen said.... The Y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA's in today's Jewish communities reflect the ancestry of their male and female founders but say little about the rest of the genome... Noting that the Y chromosome points to a Middle Eastern origin of Jewish communities and the mitochondrial DNA to a possibly local origin, Dr. Goldstein said that the composition of ordinary chromosomes, which carry most of the genes, was impossible to assess. 'My guess,' Dr. Goldstein said, 'is that the rest of the genome will be a mixture of both.'"

query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F50C15F83F5D0C778DDDAC0894DA404482

[humantag]

k5125 said:

The majority of even Israel's founding generation was not blond.

The supposed ruling "ashkenazi elite."

Are we supposed to regard Ehud Barak as particularly swarthy? This is getting silly.

The phrase 'methinks he doth protest too much' comes quickly to mind here ...

[k5125]

humantag said:

Are we supposed to regard Ehud Barak as particularly swarthy? This is getting silly.

Well, he certainly doesn't have blond hair and blue eyes.

Heck, some Italians are lighter than him. And he shares the same complexion as most central italians.

Whats getting silly is the belief that ashkenazi=light.

Barak is just one example. Goldblum, Levy etc are even better examples, but I already posted them too many times.

But even Ariel Sharon doesn't have blond hair and blue eyes, but rather naturally black hair and brown eyes.

Here are pictures of light central italians. Obviously many are darker than this, but you see my point in posting the light ones in comparison with ashkenazi jews who happen to be darker. Infact if you were under the impression these guys were ashkenazi jews you would probably assume they had "slavic" ancestry just because of their light looks.







And is this man any darker than Barak or any average central italian for that matter? Certainly not. And he is of Iranian origin.

[humantag]

k5125 said:

Well, he certainly doesn't have blond hair and blue eyes.

Heck, some Italians are lighter than him. And he shares the same complexion as most central italians.

Whats getting silly is the belief that ashkenazi=light.

Barak is just one example. Goldblum, Levy etc are even better examples, but I already posted them too many times.

But even Ariel Sharon doesn't have blond hair and blue eyes, but rather naturally black hair and brown eyes.

Here are pictures of light central italians. Obviously many are darker than this, but you see my point in posting the light ones in comparison with ashkenazi jews who happen to be darker. Infact if you were under the impression these guys were ashkenazi jews you would probably assume they had "slavic" ancestry just because of their light looks.

Look - let's suppose for the sake of argument that ALL Jews looked like Yasser Arafat and carried genes exclusively of a character associated with Middle Eastern types. This wouldn't make their claims to Israel any more legitimate.

Sure, there has probably been some Jewish presence in 'Israel' since antiquity. There has been, after all, some Jewish presence in such places as Afghanistan and Yemen for many centuries, and these places have none of the religious significance for Jews of Jerusalem. Was this presence substantial enough to rationalise giving them Palestine, or saying the land is as Jewish as it is Arab? Hell no - c'est absurd.

If it were up to me at the time ('48), I think a more reasonable and just suggestion would be to perhaps make part of Jerusalem and/or perhaps some other token city into something on the order of a 'Jewish Vatican' - a symbolic homeland that Jews could make a pilgrimage to and in which a few million might live, without displacing or marginalizing the indigenous Arab population. Even this would be asking A LOT of the indigenous Arab population.

In any event, at this point, I think the question is moot. The Jews aren't going anywhere, and neither are the Palestinians. They can try a two state solution. It could work, but I doubt it. I think problems will ultimately arise again, sooner or later. As I have stated before, I suspect the most stable and just solution for all parties would be what I called a 'South Africa' solution - the creation of a multi-ethnic Democratic state which is not by definition 'Jewish' or 'Arab' and in which both parties are equal in the eyes of the law. (I understand your objections to the comparison of Israel to apartheid era South Africa - there's no need to restate them, people can scroll up. )

Speculation: In the long run, Israel (as currently consititued) will exist only so long as it has the solid backing of the U.S., and I suspect that this support has a finite if very long half life. As demographics in the U.S. continue to change, the politics of the U.S. will ultimately veer leftward and as a consequence towards a direction increasingly less sympathetic (ultimately, unsympathetic) to Israel.

[humantag]

k5125 said:

And is this man any darker than Barak or any average central italian for that matter? Certainly not. And he is of Iranian origin.

He looks like Telly Savalas.

[k5125]

humantag said:

He looks like Telly Savalas.

Yeah he kinda does.

[Yankel]

humantag said:

By the way, could you address the issue I raised earlier?

Ashkenazi Jews are not pure or homogeneous, I never claimed that. Most Jews have a significant amount of ancestry from their host countries. The fact remains, our primary roots are in the Middle East.

And yes, Judaism can be an ethnically exclusive religion. Most American Jews are either Reform or Orthodox. If you're telling the truth about having Jewish friends, most of them were probably Reform, as most Orthodox Jews typically want nothing to do with gentiles. The Reform movement has the highest rate of intermarriage. It's definitely not ethnically exclusive.

If you want to say I'm an antisemite, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Perhaps by your sense of the term I am.

You're not anti-Semitic, you're just dense.

I find Zionism and the idea of a Chosen people and all that 'torchlight for the nations' crap obnoxious

The 'chosen people' shtick is getting old. Like I said before, read up, it's a myth. The torchlight unto nations part is true, though. Two perfect examples are Christianity and Islam.

Now back to the original issue. While there are a fair number of Jews (Ashkenazi) who could readily 'pass' for Italian or even Sicilian

Which is why Anthony Graziosi, an Italian man, was beaten by African-Americans during the Crown Heights riots, because they thought he was Jewish.

Nicholas Wade. "In DNA, New Clues to Jewish Roots." The New York Times (May 14, 2002): F1 (col. 1). Excerpts:

'My guess,' Dr. Goldstein said, 'is that the rest of the genome will be a mixture of both.'"

Well, Humantag, that's not exactly what I requested. I asked for a study which concludes that Jews are closer to Europeans than Near Easterners. This is simply a layman's interpretation of research that contradicts your claim.

That said, most agree with what DR. Goldstein said above. Ashkenazi Jews are 50-50 mixes, more or less.

[humantag]

I think we are pretty much in agreement - by coincidence I had actually been in the process of moderating my previous comments - as you were making your last post - curious

Yes - I think 50-50 is a reasonable conjecture.

This is what I added to my original post that you objected to:

"I see that in my original comments I said most studies suggest that (Askhkenazi) Jews are far more European than Middle Eastern. Well, this is a bit overstated - I should have said most studies suggest that they are at least as European as they are Middle Eastern (as the citation below suggests).

I think anyone being honest would have to concede that the precise nature of Ashkenazi origins remains mysterious. Clearly they have both European and Middle Eastern roots, but by in large they (Ashkenazis) look more European than Middle Eastern.

A more measured response you'll not get from me "

I am well aware of the Crown Heights incident (back in '91 or '92), and the Italian-American who was attacked because he was presumed to be a Jew. I think any white person on the streets that day was likely going to be attacked as a Jew, frankly.

Your calling me 'dense' aside, I think your stated position is pretty reasonable.

[humantag]

Flowin said:

And yes, Judaism can be an ethnically exclusive religion. Most American Jews are either Reform or Orthodox. If you're telling the truth about having Jewish friends, most of them were probably Reform, as most Orthodox Jews typically want nothing to do with gentiles. The Reform movement has the highest rate of intermarriage. It's definitely not ethnically exclusive.

I'm aware to a degree of the distinctions between reform, conservative and orthodox Judaism and certainly that most Jews (or so it seems) are Reform.

As far as I know, all of my Jewish friends are in fact reform, if observant at all. Actually, most are non-observant altogether. In terms of a 'religious identity', if pressed, many would be more likely to identify as 'freethinker', agnostic, or atheist or some such than anything else. This would be true of most of my non-Jewish friends as well.

I am disturbed if not surprised by what you say about Orthodox Jews wanting nothing to do with gentiles. That's the sort of Judaism I find objectionable.

I find your commenst about 'the Chosen' thing being 'a myth' intriguing. I'd appreciate it if you could elaborate (I mean that sincerely, not 'smarmily').

[Yankel]

humantag said:

Look - let's suppose for the sake of argument that ALL Jews looked like Yasser Arafat and carried genes exclusively of a character associated with Middle Eastern types. This wouldn't make their claims to Israel any more legitimate.

Likewise, even if all Jews were genetically and phenotypically European it wouldn't delegitimize our claim to Israel. All of that is irrelevant.

Speculation: In the long run, Israel (as currently consititued) will exist only so long as it has the solid backing of the U.S., and I suspect that this support has a finite if very long half life. As demographics in the U.S. continue to change, the politics of the U.S. will ultimately veer leftward and as a consequence towards a direction increasingly less sympathetic (ultimately, unsympathetic) to Israel.

Are you kidding me? The vast majority of Americans, being Evangelical Christians, are staunch supporters of Israel and the Jewish people in general. The US will continue to support Israel for that reason alone, not to mention a dozen or so others. Additionally, people seem to forget that the US also sends billions in aid to places like Lebanon, Egypt and Saudi Arabia. The Palestinians recieve more aid per capita than any other nation in the world.