Why Anti-Semitism?

[Curious6]

Springa said:

Actually, most of the criticism towards Israel in the western world, at least the criticism most people actually listen to, come from people or organizations who have no problem with Jews or even with the existence of Israel but just disagree with it's policies. Such as the U.N. for instance, and in many cases

The UN is definitely not free of bias. There are many proofs of this. You can easily find them on the Internet. Actually, the UN is so biased in the Middle East conflict that there have been several people from within the UN calling for drastic reforms regarding this matter.

There are 59 Muslim countries in the UN. These countries and their influence helps to explain the bias.

[Curious6]

Alexandrian said:

The United Nations is just that...a united organization of all nations. They don't need to conform to American-imposed standards of what kind of governance a country must have. Libya has as much a right to a seat on the human rights council than any other country in the world. Every country- and its style of government- is on an equal footing when it comes to the UN.

I don't agree at all. Some countries constantly violate human rights, and therefore should first seek to improve the situation in their own countries before seating on the human rights council. It's true that in the UN General Assembly all countries are on equal footing as they are all allowed to vote once, but we should recognize the fact that there are still many countries that are in serious violation of the most basic human rights.

[Springa]

Yes, but it's not like it's all a big anti-jewish conspiracy, is it?
It's not like everybody's anti-semitic, come on.

Curious6 said:

The UN is definitely not free of bias. There are many proofs of this. You can easily find them on the Internet. Actually, the UN is so biased in the Middle East conflict that there have been several people from within the UN calling for drastic reforms regarding this matter.

There are 59 Muslim countries in the UN. These countries and their influence helps to explain the bias.

[nockwasright]

Springa said:

Yes, but it's not like it's all a big anti-jewish conspiracy, is it?
It's not like everybody's anti-semitic, come on.

No, not everybody, but still many are. The simple fact that "Anti Zionism" is considered a perfectly legitimate whay of thouht in Western World and even among Jews, is quite telling: which other population is asked by the World to disband and leave their country?

Criticism of Israel is not anti semitism per se, obviously, but being against the existence itself of Israel is.

More on the topic, Thomas Sowell thinks that the roots of Anti Semitism are in the economic role assumed by Jews in other countries i.e. the so called middleman.
As for the economically illitterate (i.e. the laymen) the earnings of the middlemen are withouth justification, middlemen minorities have always been object of ostility. Other middlemen minorities as Chinese have suffered racial hate in the places where they have that economic role. The Jews in this theory are only the most prominent and famous middlemen minority of the world.

It may partially answer the topic question.

[humantag]

nockwasright said:

No, not everybody, but still many are. The simple fact that "Anti Zionism" is considered a perfectly legitimate whay of thouht in Western World and even among Jews, is quite telling: which other population is asked by the World to disband and leave their country?

Actually, they're being asked (by some, not 'the whole world') to leave the Palestinian's country.

I myself believe that the most pragmatic and just solution for all parties would be at some point what I call a 'South African solution' - don't throw anybody out, but allow for a multi-ethnic democratic state which is not 'Jewish' or 'Arab' by definition.

nockwasright said:

Criticism of Israel is not anti semitism per se, obviously, but being against the existence itself of Israel is.

Nonsense. Many regard Israel as currently consituted as fundamentally injust and illegitimate - a nation of Europeans and other foreignors, backed by foreign muscle, who have displaced and marginalized the indigenous population, and whose claim to the land is predicated largely on the basis of religious dogma.

[Melnorme]

The whole 'anti-Semitism/anti-Zionism' comparison is stupid. Those who make it have clearly internalized the 'wisdom of the day' that racism is the ultimate sin that every other sin must be compared against.

It's BS. Anti-Zionism isn't anti-Semitism, but it's still bad enough on its own. Wanting to end the national existence of 5+ million people, including millions from cultures who no longer exist anywhere else on the globe ( Iraqi Jews, etc. ), is vile and wrong, period.

[nockwasright]

Melnorme said:

It's BS. Anti-Zionism isn't anti-Semitism, but it's still bad enough on its own. Wanting to end the national existence of 5+ million people, including millions from cultures who no longer exist anywhere else on the globe ( Iraqi Jews, etc. ), is vile and wrong, period.

Mmm. I beg to differ on the first proposition. No one but the Jews has ever been required to pack and leave. It is not just that like someone thinks Israel should never have existed (which is a legitimate thought) and to erase it is the rational solution (which is not).

This special treatment is for Jews only. Everybody would agree that URSS patronising of its imperial provinces was wrong, but nobody is asking the many Russians sons of the Russians who were sent around to russify countries to leave. I don't hear people advocating Europeans to leave the New World to its previous owners. Even South African whites are not asked to go. Plus the new diaspora is so clearly impossible that advocating it is just an act of hostility. I can understand that is possibile to distinguish logically between racial hate against Jews and Anti Zionism, but in real world the two things are the same. Israelis can not go away and will never go away, so asking them is not dialogue is just an expression of hate.

[NuSapiens]

nockwasright said:

I can understand that is possibile to distinguish logically between racial hate against Jews and Anti Zionism, but in real world the two things are the same. Israelis can not go away and will never go away, so asking them is not dialogue is just an expression of hate.

Well, if Jews don't have a homeland in Israel, they have no choice but to live elsewhere, and deal with Anti-Semitism. So for this reason, I don't understand why Anti-Semites hate Israel. It also means that as problematic as Israel is (for Israelis, I mean), it might be the best safeguard against Anti-Semitism, and also the best answer to any genocidal anti-Jewish regime that might spring up in the world.

Of course, IMO the best protection against all forms of genocide is preventing poverty in ethnically mixed areas.

[k5125]

humantag said:

Actually, they're being asked (by some, not 'the whole world') to leave the Palestinian's country.

I think the way it worked is that Israelis were originally Palestinians as well, but they chose to adopt the name "Israel" rather than "Palestine" for the name of their country.

humantag said:

I myself believe that the most pragmatic and just solution for all parties would be at some point what I call a 'South African solution' - don't throw anybody out, but allow for a multi-ethnic democratic state which is not 'Jewish' or 'Arab' by definition.

Its not a good analogy though because Israel isn't at all like south africa. For one thing we aren't even dealing with two separate races like caucasoid and negroid. We are dealing with arabs and jews who both belong to the caucasoid race.

Secondly there has always been a jewish and arab presence in palestine. Both groups are indigenous to the land, and both groups have absorbed foreigners into their gene pools.

humantag said:

Nonsense. Many regard Israel as currently consituted as fundamentally injust and illegitimate - a nation of Europeans and other foreignors, backed by foreign muscle, who have displaced and marginalized the indigenous population, and whose claim to the land is predicated largely on the basis of religious dogma.

Whoever regards it as such is greatly misinformed. We all know the majority of jews are a semitic people. The claim to the land is based both on some jews living in it for hundreds and hundreds of years and the ancestral ties of other jews.

But the very fact that so many jews actually belong to other races (Ethiopians etc) and were airlifted to Israel just shows how ludicrous these accusations of "racism" are. Israel is the most tolerant state in the entire middle east.

Comparing it to apartheid south africa is absolutely insane. Even Arabs serve in the IDF and there are tons of ethiopian jews in the IDF as well.

[k5125]

I mean seriously...

Here is a pic of an Israeli jewish soldier and a palestinian arab civilian arguing.

How is this apartheid again? Why is this situation even being compared to south africa? South africa shouldn't even enter the equation.



And another pic.

[Yankel]

nockwasright said:

Mmm. I beg to differ on the first proposition. No one but the Jews has ever been required to pack and leave. It is not just that like someone thinks Israel should never have existed (which is a legitimate thought) and to erase it is the rational solution (which is not).

I agree. It's not about anti-Zionism, it's about what motivates that sentiment.

Wanting to end the national existence of 5+ million people, including millions from cultures who no longer exist anywhere else on the globe ( Iraqi Jews, etc. ), is vile and wrong, period.

"When we talk politics with Arabs in Israel, they say, 'My grandfather used to live in Tel Aviv, and now it's owned by Jewish people -- we want to come back,'" he says. "I respond, 'My parents came from Iran and Tunisia, but nobody is going to give our property back to us. It's all been confiscated . . . We have this little sandbox we call Israel. We give our hearts and lives to make it a proud country. Every one serves in the Israeli Defense Force in order for Israel to survive. You have half of the globe. What the f*ck do you want from us? Go live in Saudi Arabia.'"
- Israeli rapper Subliminal

[nockwasright]

NuSapiens said:

Well, if Jews don't have a homeland in Israel, they have no choice but to live elsewhere, and deal with Anti-Semitism. So for this reason, I don't understand why Anti-Semites hate Israel.

It is because they don't actually fear that Israelis will leave Israel and spread around the globe. Nobody thinks this possible.
Israelis have been there to generations and will never leave, this clownish "anti sionism" thing is exactly the same thing as going to the citizens of Baviera and say we discovered you have no good claim on the land, please leave.
So advocating the elimination of Israel is just the socially allowed proxy hate for Jews. It has no other real aim than to express racial hate in a tolerated form.

[mike2]

Hmmm... what are the roots of Anti-Semitism?

Well, I think distaste for the Jews stems from the resentment of native peoples who find the scattered Jews to be parasitic and suspiciously overly-successful. It would be like Mexicans coming into the U.S. and gradually becoming richer, more successful, and more influential than regular Joe Shmo Anglo-Americans. If there was never a Jewish diaspora, I doubt that there would be any widespread animosity toward Jews. That's just my opinion as of now. I mean, really, if the Jews were never kicked out of Israel so many centuries ago, would we be having this conversation? I really don't think so.

[Curious6]

Flowin said:

"When we talk politics with Arabs in Israel, they say, 'My grandfather used to live in Tel Aviv, and now it's owned by Jewish people -- we want to come back,'" he says. "I respond, 'My parents came from Iran and Tunisia, but nobody is going to give our property back to us. It's all been confiscated . . . We have this little sandbox we call Israel. We give our hearts and lives to make it a proud country. Every one serves in the Israeli Defense Force in order for Israel to survive. You have half of the globe. What the f*ck do you want from us? Go live in Saudi Arabia.'"
- Israeli rapper Subliminal

Man, Subliminal has summed up the whole situation in a few short sentences. I totally agree.

[mike2]

Yeah, the Palestinians should all just leave their homeland and go to Saudi Arabia. What sound advice.