Why Anti-Semitism?

[Springa]

Equaling anti-zionism with anti-semitism is as stupid or manipulative as equaling zionism with "jews" or even war crimes with zionism in general.
Although I believe there is indeed anti-semitism and some anti-semitic overtones sometimes in the political criticism of zionism and the State of Israel, I do not think most of it in the USA and Europe are anti-semitic at all. In Arab states that could be true, but not in the western world, where many critics of Israel are jews themselves.
It's pretty easy for zionists to call anyone who criticizes it an anti-semite, just as it's easy for people to call anyone who criticizes Bush or any American policy "anti-american". To completely mix a regime and it's policies with society and a people is a characteristic of totalitarian states, and is in the interests of the regimes to make people feel that any criticism towards the government is actually against the people itself. It's ideological maipulation of the worst kind.

humantag said:

A second form of anti-semtism is that which arises as a consequence to Zionism and/or Israeli excesses in their dealings with the Palestinians. This is the antisemitism common in the Middle east, and increasingly amongst the left in Europe and America. Some in this camp might even resent the very term 'anti-semitism' as a term for 'anti-Jewish' (as they question the Jews very claim to be 'semites' in the first place).

[humantag]

Springa said:

Equaling anti-zionism with anti-semitism is as stupid or manipulative as equaling zionism with "jews" or even war crimes with zionism in general.
Although I believe there is indeed anti-semitism and some anti-semitic overtones sometimes in the political criticism of zionism and the State of Israel, I do not think most of it in the USA and Europe are anti-semitic at all. In Arab states that could be true, but not in the western world, where many critics of Israel are jews themselves.
It's pretty easy for zionists to call anyone who criticizes it an anti-semite, just as it's easy for people to call anyone who criticizes Bush or any American policy "anti-american". To completely mix a regime and it's policies with society and a people is a characteristic of totalitarian states, and is in the interests of the regimes to make people feel that any criticism towards the government is actually against the people itself. It's ideological maipulation of the worst kind.

Are you retarded or something? Go back and reread my post that you're respondng to, and you will see that I specifically identfied myself as both an Anti-Zionist and NOT anti-semitic, so I am obvioulsy NOT equating the two.

Understand what you read before you criticise it please.

My point is NOT that anti-zionism = antisemitism; again I identified myself as an anti-zionist and I do not consider myself an antisemite. I said that of the three sorts of anti-semitism I described, one comes is a consequence of Zionism and Israel's dealings with the Palestinians. For most people, opposition to Zionism does not lead to hatred of Jews - for some it does. Even more so the excesses in Israel's treatment of the Palestinians.

Sorry to be rude but I get annoyed when people criticise me for something I did not say.

[Curious6]

Please tell us what you object about the treatment of Palestinians, most, if not all of it is self-inflicted.

[Yankel]

The third main form of anti-semitism is a reaction to the perception of Jews as an arrogant and/or hypocritical people. Arrogant for imagining themselves 'God's chosen people'

Jews don't claim to be 'God's chosen people'. At least not in the context you're referring to. If goyim actually bothered to read Jewish literature this misconception would quickly disappear.

It's a moot point, anyway. Yes, we are close-knit. But, Jews, like any other people, are individuals first. Ever heard the expression, '2 Jews, 3 opinions'? Probably not. I doubt you know any Jewish people.

[k5125]

Springa said:

Equaling anti-zionism with anti-semitism is as stupid or manipulative as equaling zionism with "jews" or even war crimes with zionism in general.
Although I believe there is indeed anti-semitism and some anti-semitic overtones sometimes in the political criticism of zionism and the State of Israel, I do not think most of it in the USA and Europe are anti-semitic at all. In Arab states that could be true, but not in the western world, where many critics of Israel are jews themselves.
It's pretty easy for zionists to call anyone who criticizes it an anti-semite, just as it's easy for people to call anyone who criticizes Bush or any American policy "anti-american". To completely mix a regime and it's policies with society and a people is a characteristic of totalitarian states, and is in the interests of the regimes to make people feel that any criticism towards the government is actually against the people itself. It's ideological maipulation of the worst kind.

Criticizing Israeli policy certainly isn't anti-semitic.

Most of the time though the people who are doing the criticizing are indeed anti-semitic or "anti-jewish" ( a better term) to begin with.

Just look at some of the people most oppossed to zionism.

All white power movements always hate zionism. KKK, Aryan Nations, etc. I think these are the guys that came of with terms like "occupied zionist government". Even if they didn't invent them they certainly use them the most. When is the last time David Duke has said something nice about zionism?

And then of course you have the lovely Louis Farrakhan and his followers in NOI.

And then from the eastern world all the fundamentalist groups like Al-Qaeda, Hizbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc. And countries like Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Libya....all these guys always criticize "zionism."

I think Saddam Hussein even hung something like 13 Jews back in the day. He called them "zionist spies".

So you see whenever people say..."I am not anti-semitic, I am just anti-zionist", Jews get upset, and most times this reaction is justified. Its a favorite line among hate groups and even nutty protestors out there.

I'm not saying you or anyone else has to agree with Israeli policy. Criticizing Israel doesn't make one anti-semitic. I'm just explaining that the jewish negative reaction to "anti-zionism" exists for a reason.

I would say about half of America supports Israel. Europe on the other hand....I could be wrong, but I would say most hate Israel, and quite frankly I am not surprised. I have never been a fan of europe anyway.

[yigal]

this bloke who started this shite thread to begin with iz full of it eh

i mean even among the resident A-rabs i havent experienced any judenhass(antisemitism seemed not apropriate when refering to the Ey-Rabic peoples)

[geo]

Flowin said:

If goyim actually bothered to read Jewish literature this misconception would quickly disappear.

I dont know what 'goyim' are supposed to read, but calling those scrawls literature is too much indeed.

[Curious6]

Geo, you're an idiot. Ciao.

[geo]

If you're trying to insult me you should know that 'idiot' derives from 'idiotis' which means 'privateer' a man who thinks and does only for himself. Next time use 'stupid' instead and I might be insulted.

[Springa]

You're the one who's retarded if you think you're gonna be taken seriously by acting childish and calling people names.
First of all I'm not commenting on your worldview or opinions, I'm commenting on one of the items on your list of types of anti-semitism, which I didn't agree with. I completely understood what I read and I was aware all the time that you consider yourself an anti-zionist. Nevertheless you see anti-semitism in some places I don't.
My post wasn't even about you, it was about people who usually identify anti-semitism with criticism of Israel. I was replying to your post, but I was making a general comment, based on thepart I quoted. I apologise if that wasn't very clear. You're gonna have to stop with the insults though.

humantag said:

Are you retarded or something? Go back and reread my post that you're respondng to, and you will see that I specifically identfied myself as both an Anti-Zionist and NOT anti-semitic, so I am obvioulsy NOT equating the two.

Understand what you read before you criticise it please.

My point is NOT that anti-zionism = antisemitism; again I identified myself as an anti-zionist and I do not consider myself an antisemite. I said that of the three sorts of anti-semitism I described, one comes is a consequence of Zionism and Israel's dealings with the Palestinians. For most people, opposition to Zionism does not lead to hatred of Jews - for some it does. Even more so the excesses in Israel's treatment of the Palestinians.

Sorry to be rude but I get annoyed when people criticise me for something I did not say.

[Springa]

Actually, most of the criticism towards Israel in the western world, at least the criticism most people actually listen to, come from people or organizations who have no problem with Jews or even with the existence of Israel but just disagree with it's policies. Such as the U.N. for instance, and in many cases, every single country in the world except for the U.S., Israel itself and whoever needs to vote with them for some reason. The majority isn't necessarily always right. But what I mean is that it's naive to believe that it's all a big anti-Jewish conspiracy when everybody else in the world but a handful of countries is disaproving of an Israeli policy, which is something that's happened a number of times in the U.N.

I agree that many of the people who believe Israel should not exist have some degree of anti-jewish (I agree it's a better term) feelings, but not even all of those are anti-semitic.

Some people also have equivocous, misinformed or excessive criticism of Israel, but it doesn't mean they hate jews or they think Israelis should be killed or anything like that.

So no, I do not think that most criticism of Israel is done by people who hate Jews. Actually some of the most effective criticism is done inside Israel, by Jews themselves, who don't agree with their countries policies. And no, they're neither traitors nor self loathing jews.

k5125 said:

Most of the time though the people who are doing the criticizing are indeed anti-semitic or "anti-jewish" ( a better term) to begin with.

Just look at some of the people most oppossed to zionism.

All white power movements always hate zionism. KKK, Aryan Nations, etc. I think these are the guys that came of with terms like "occupied zionist government". Even if they didn't invent them they certainly use them the most. When is the last time David Duke has said something nice about zionism?

And then of course you have the lovely Louis Farrakhan and his followers in NOI.

And then from the eastern world all the fundamentalist groups like Al-Qaeda, Hizbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc. And countries like Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Libya....all these guys always criticize "zionism."

I think Saddam Hussein even hung something like 13 Jews back in the day. He called them "zionist spies".

So you see whenever people say..."I am not anti-semitic, I am just anti-zionist", Jews get upset, and most times this reaction is justified. Its a favorite line among hate groups and even nutty protestors out there.

I'm not saying you or anyone else has to agree with Israeli policy. Criticizing Israel doesn't make one anti-semitic. I'm just explaining that the jewish negative reaction to "anti-zionism" exists for a reason.

I would say about half of America supports Israel. Europe on the other hand....I could be wrong, but I would say most hate Israel, and quite frankly I am not surprised. I have never been a fan of europe anyway.

[Yankel]

Springa said:

Actually, most of the criticism towards Israel in the western world, at least the criticism most people actually listen to, come from people or organizations who have no problem with Jews or even with the existence of Israel but just disagree with it's policies. Such as the U.N. for instance, and in many cases, every single country in the world except for the U.S., Israel itself and whoever needs to vote with them for some reason.

The majority of the criticism comes from the UN, which has consistently ignored real human rights violations, such as the genocide in Rwanda, in favor of bashing the Jewish state. What has Israel done that commands precedence over genocide?

It's worth noting that there are lots of Islamic countries in the UN.

[k5125]

Syria is on the UN security council, and I believe for a time Muammar Qaddafi was head of the UN human rights watch, correct me if I am wrong.

Its no wonder the UN is oppossed to Israel defending itself.

[mike2]

Qaddafi... human rights watch? That is too funny. No wonder the U.N. doesn't know its arse from a hole in the ground.

[alexandrian]

The United Nations is just that...a united organization of all nations. They don't need to conform to American-imposed standards of what kind of governance a country must have. Libya has as much a right to a seat on the human rights council than any other country in the world. Every country- and its style of government- is on an equal footing when it comes to the UN.