Ancient philosophers

[kynikos]

Artemisia

On Diogenes:

If we take his YOB as 412 BC, that makes him only 8 oops, sorry, 16 years younger than Plato.

Besides the "chicken" story, I know of two more, so something must have been going on...

It is said that Diogenes trampled upon Plato's carpets with the words "I trample upon the pride of Plato", who retorted, "Yes, Diogenes, with pride of another sort."

Plato saw him washing lettuces, came up to him and quietly said to him, "Had you paid court to Dionysius you wouldn't now be washing lettuces." Diogenes with equal calmness answered, "If you had washed lettuces, you wouldn't have paid court to Dionysius."

I mean, were they on each other's case or what?



(edit - corrected arithmetic)

[Artemisia]

Yes, as a matter of fact it was on my desk, by coincidence, as I was looking something up.

I must have read your mind.....from one Greek to another.

I think your catchphrase, "INSPIRATIONAL BUT DEPRESSING", is the best summing up of the Stoics I've heard for a while.

It is quite true. I keep re-reading Marcus and Epictetus and they are indeed inspirational but, as you said, Stoicism isn't exactly fun. Stoicism and Epicureanism would make nice companions if they could sort out their differences.

Now if Stoicism had had a sense of fun, wouldn''t that have been dandy. The theoretical elegance of the Stoics, with the practical, in yer face, no bullshit, style of the Cynics. A philosophy for our era...

Cynicism=Hippyism

[kynikos]

Artemisia,

ÏÊ, so we are both Stoics in search of fun...

Now,

Cynicism=Hippyism

Epicureanism = ??

[Ioulianos]

kynikos said:

Epicureanism = ??

...realism

[kynikos]

Ioulianos said:

...realism

Damn!

And here's me thinking it had something to do with a life of ease, luxury and pleasure...

Am I wrong? And if so, where's the fun in it?

[Artemisia]

Epicureanism = Hedonism

[kynikos]

Artemisia said:

Epicureanism = Hedonism

Yes, that's more like it, that's what I thought. I'm not sure what Ioulianos is on about, maybe he thinks hedonism IS realism!

Now, here is my problem:
No difficulty in reconciling Stoicism with Cynicism, they both regard luxury with some disdain...

But I don't quite get Epicurianism, and sadly, don't have time to read it. I have some friends who claim to be Epicureans, but buggered if I can get any sense out of them either...

So, did Epicurus suggest that you enjoy everything to the best of your ability, because that's the way to handle its transcience, which I can relate to, because it almost sounds tongue-in-cheek, or was he alluding to some kind of desperate, grasping, state, i.e. "you can only enjoy it now, you never know when it will be gone".

If so, then he was probably the first neurotic

(Who says the Greeks didn't invent everything?)

Over to you, Epicureans

[Ioulianos]

kynikos said:

Damn!

And here's me thinking it had something to do with a life of ease, luxury and pleasure...

Am I wrong? And if so, where's the fun in it?

www.epicurus.net/menoeceus.html ."...When we say,then,that the pleasure is the end and aim,we do not mean the pleasures of the prodogal or the pleasures of sensuality,...".I think here Epikuros is making himself clear on what he means by "pleasure" and "hedonism"

[Artemisia]

Kynikos,

The problem with understanding Epicureanism has to do first of all with our lack of surviving sources. I believe the only complete Epicurean work is Lucretius' "De Rerum Natura" with the scrolls from the Villa of the Papyrii (most the work of Philodemus of Gadara) coming in second. Epicurus is said to have written more than any other philosopher.....it is a shame we don't have any of his work. As I said before, the Christians hated Epicurean philosophy and didn't preserve it.

Now, if only the Italian government and various clubs could give money to archaeologists to excavate the Villa of the Papirii (there are so many more scrolls buried under the ash) we may get a copy of Epicurus's work. The owner of the Villa (the father in law of Julius Ceasar) was an avid Epicurean and had a huge Greek and Roman library, mostly consisting of Epicurean literature.

[kynikos]

Artemisia, Ioulianos,

Thanks for the information guys - you've just about got me interested.

I didn't realise that so little of Epicurus' work survives. To my shame, I also confess that I have not bothered to read "de Rerum Natura", only seen a few snippets here nad there, so most of my understanding on it is third hand.

I do remember, however, that in school we were taught that the archaic view "natura non facit saltus" was overthrown by quantum theory, so there you go - not exactly good press!!

Over time (present company excepted) I have always tended to be rather wary of anyone claiming to be a "Epicurean". I always sensed some kind of desperation in the assertion...

OTOH, I suspect that some people who are very close to me (including my kid and one of my best friends) are true Epicureans, although they will probably never hear the name "Epicurus" in their lives, as they are not interested in philosophy!

It's just something about the way they live their lives: pragmatically, but totally absorbed in them at the same time. Loving luxury, but not attached to it.

Maybe that's what you mean by "realism", Ioulianos.

So, we still need to clarify this "hedonism" thing.
What on earth is non-prodigal hedonism or even non-sensual hedonism?

[Artemisia]

I didn't realise that so little of Epicurus' work survives. To my shame, I also confess that I have not bothered to read "de Rerum Natura", only seen a few snippets here nad there, so most of my understanding on it is third hand.

Don't feel bad. I haven't read it either (it's on my "to read" list.)

So, we still need to clarify this "hedonism" thing.
What on earth is non-prodigal hedonism or even non-sensual hedonism?

Hey, it's simple: you can have your pie and eat it too.
The Epicureans lived in seclusion and no one really knew what happened between them in "the Garden".

[Artemidoros]

Off topic again on the subject of death. Here is one for Ioulianos. Lethe by Mavilis. The English translation is poor but you can get the point. The Greek text is below.
genesis.ee.auth.gr/dimakis/poetrygreece/1/10.html

[kynikos]

Artemisia said:

Hey, it's simple: you can have your pie and eat it too.

I like the sound of that. I'll dwell on it for a while, if I may...

The Epicureans lived in seclusion and no one really knew what happened between them in "the Garden".

What do you think happened between them?

=========

Artemidoros,

Off-topic? Death? In a philosophical discussion? You jest, of course...

Lovely poem, Lethe, I didn't know it. Thanks for posting...


PS. Which philosopher did you vote for Artemidiros, if I may be so rude as to ask...

[Artemisia]

I like the sound of that. I'll dwell on it for a while, if I may...

There is actually a Roman silver cup depicting Epicurus and Zeno (in skeletal form) pointing to a large cake. The motto "Hedonism is the way of life" is inscribed above Epicurus.

What do you think happened between them?

I prefer to leave that to your imagination, kynikos.....

[Artemidoros]

kynikos said:

PS. Which philosopher did you vote for Artemidiros, if I may be so rude as to ask...

I have not voted. I am undecided. Also, voting for a philosopher seems a little inappropriate to me. I have a lot of respect for anyone looking for answers. Here is some more poetry, I am sure you know this one.

But do not hurry the voyage at all.
It is better to let it last for many years;
and to anchor at the island when you are old,
rich with all you have gained on the way,
not expecting that Ithaca will offer you riches.



users.hol.gr/~barbanis/cavafy/ithaca.html

users.hol.gr/~barbanis/cavafy/ithaca-gr.html