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Post by santana on May 15, 2005 1:52:05 GMT -5
im egyptian and i know how we view ourselves ..
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Post by alexandrian on May 15, 2005 1:52:23 GMT -5
Sure there's a trans-Mediterranean feeling in northern Egypt, only in your dreams alex. You have no right to lay any claims to civilisations in Greece, Rome, Turkey, and Syria. Stick to your hole wherever you are. Only in my dreams? Okay, I am a Northern Egyptian and I feel damn well I can speak for myself. Do you know how much cultural diffusion and co-operation there has been going on in the Eastern Mediterranean from Pharonic times to Greco-Roman times to Coptic times to Islamic times to Ottoman times to colonial times! This interaction involved all the countries you listed above and Egypt. WE WERE UNITED WITH SYRIA AS ONE COUNTRY IN THE 1960s. How can you say there is no connection? Ask an Egyptian, any Egyptian, if they feel more in common with Syria or Nigeria, and you will hear Syria as a response. The Egyptians allowed the Greeks to build their own city in northern Egypt during ancient times. THe city I am from was founded by Greeks and had a 1/3 European population in the early 1900s. No connection my ass! See you can keep thinking I make all this up. I really dont give a shit because I am entitled to my own opinions and my own associations. It is undeniable that northern egyptians have more in common with Turks and Syrians and Armenians thaan with Ghanains and Nigerians. Only your Afrocentric mind can't handle that truth. I never claim to speak for all Egyptians, but I can speak for some. I do feel a connection to other civs of the Mediterranean for many personal reasons (coming from Alexandria, being Egyptian, having non-egyptian Mediterranean blood, being Orthodox) and this feeling is very justified and is not ludicrous. I have a right to lay claims to civilizations to Greece, Turkey, Syria, and Armenia because Egypt influenced all of them and vice-versa, because people from all those countries made an impact on the Egyptian genepool, and because people from some of those countries mixed into my family. Furthermore, these people have been present in Egypt from pharoanic times to (in the case of Syrians) today. Don't you dare try to have a conversation with me about the feeling of Egyptians. You have no right to make any judgments about them. I can speak for myself and associate myself and my people with whoever I want. Unlike with Ghanians or Nigerians, Egyptians and Syrians are not of a different race.
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Post by santana on May 15, 2005 1:54:30 GMT -5
well said.
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Post by alexandrian on May 15, 2005 1:55:25 GMT -5
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Post by topdog on May 15, 2005 2:00:09 GMT -5
Okay, the person in question did not study Arabs and Berbers, he studied Egyptians from a sample given to him by Mansoura University- a typical Egyptian town. He was merely saying that Egyptians were intermediate between Arabs and Berbers. The same person also classified ARabic-speaking Morrocans as Arabs. We know that's not true either. He was just trying to make it simple. Face it, those people were Egyptians. Arab-Berbers are not typical Egyptians, face some evidence: Am J Hum Biol. 2004 Nov-Dec;16(6):679-89. Exploring northeast African metric craniofacial variation at the individual level: A comparative study using principal components analysis. Keita SO. National Human Genome Center at Howard University, Anthropology Department, Smithsonian Institute, Washington, DC 20060. "Lower Egypt most certainly has been the recipient of immigrants in ancient as well as more recent times (Lucotte and Mercier 2003). The delta region of Egypt has been impacted by European (Graeco-Roman) and Near Eastern peoples, the latter apparently PRIMARILY during the Islamic and NOT Neolithic period (Nebel et al. 2002). It is important to say that the indigenous northern Egyptians, while adjacent to the Libyco-Berber region, cannot simply be called "Berbers". The Y Chromosome data suggest that the original Egyptian Nile Valley population cannot be treated analytically as "Berber", thereby in effect negating the disticntiveness and identity of the core indigenous ancient Nile Valley populations (see, e.g., Harich et al., 2002; Luis et al., 2004; Herrera et al., 2004, for a description of "Egyptians" as merely being an "Arab"-"Berber" admixture/composite, without a discussion of the indigenous Nile Valley population).
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Post by alexandrian on May 15, 2005 2:04:49 GMT -5
Arab-Berbers are not typical Egyptians, face some evidence: Am J Hum Biol. 2004 Nov-Dec;16(6):679-89. Exploring northeast African metric craniofacial variation at the individual level: A comparative study using principal components analysis. Keita SO. National Human Genome Center at Howard University, Anthropology Department, Smithsonian Institute, Washington, DC 20060. "Lower Egypt most certainly has been the recipient of immigrants in ancient as well as more recent times (Lucotte and Mercier 2003). The delta region of Egypt has been impacted by European (Graeco-Roman) and Near Eastern peoples, the latter apparently PRIMARILY during the Islamic and NOT Neolithic period (Nebel et al. 2002). It is important to say that the indigenous northern Egyptians, while adjacent to the Libyco-Berber region, cannot simply be called "Berbers". The Y Chromosome data suggest that the original Egyptian Nile Valley population cannot be treated analytically as "Berber", thereby in effect negating the disticntiveness and identity of the core indigenous ancient Nile Valley populations (see, e.g., Harich et al., 2002; Luis et al., 2004; Herrera et al., 2004, for a description of "Egyptians" as merely being an "Arab"-"Berber" admixture/composite, without a discussion of the indigenous Nile Valley population).See even your link said it- "ARab-berber" was a description of Egyptians. Not just random Arabs and Berbers. I never said Egyptians were Berber or Arab, I just said you misunderstood what they were saying and that the Egypt/Oman survey involved actual Egyptians. This has just been proven correct by the fact that it was referred to as a description of Egyptians. In the general introspective Arab view, Egyptians are generally considered lighter than Saudis and Omanis. Just as an FYI. And I like how you consistently change the subject back and forth when you realize you can't argue with an egyptian over who they associate with and you keep referring back to this moot point. This study does cite a common origin for Egyptians and Morroccan Berbers: www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1034/j.1399-0039.2000.550307.x/abs/
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Post by topdog on May 15, 2005 2:18:02 GMT -5
Only in my dreams? Okay, I am a Northern Egyptian and I feel damn well I can speak for myself. Do you know how much cultural diffusion and co-operation there has been going on in the Eastern Mediterranean from Pharonic times to Greco-Roman times to Coptic times to Islamic times to Ottoman times to colonial times! This interaction involved all the countries you listed above and Egypt. Cultural diffusion aside, you have no claims to Greco-Roman, Turkish, or Armenian civilisations. Thats right, speak for yourself and your fanatasy world. Why do you continuously omit Nubians? Ideas flowed from Nubia into Egypt as well as Nubians ruling Egypt, but you will claim Nubians nor allow a Nubian to claim Egypt. That makes you a hypocrite. The union of syria and Egypt in the 1960s was a **pan-ARAB** union[United Arab Republic, not United pan-Mediterranean Republic] and that union **WAS** recent but is no more. When Sadat made peace with Israel, Syria scorned Egypt. What you have failed to say is that part of ancient Nubia lies in modern day Egypt so who's connected more to whom now? BTW, a Nigerian feels no more in common with a Ghanaian than an Egyptian will feel towards an Egyptian. You still have no right to claim other civilisations especially Greco-Roman. Yes, and those reasons are for chest pounding. No, you have no right to claim anything, quit chest-pounding and stick to your hole. There is sub-Saharan genetic impact in Egypt as well as cultural ties to Africa below Egypt, but you deny those, why? So have Nubians so why omit them?
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Post by topdog on May 15, 2005 2:24:38 GMT -5
See even your link said it- "ARab-berber" was a description of Egyptians. Not just random Arabs and Berbers. I never said Egyptians were Berber or Arab, I just said you misunderstood what they were saying and that the Egypt/Oman survey involved actual Egyptians. This has just been proven correct by the fact that it was referred to as a description of Egyptians. In the general introspective Arab view, Egyptians are generally considered lighter than Saudis and Omanis. Just as an FYI. And I like how you consistently change the subject back and forth when you realize you can't argue with an egyptian over who they associate with and you keep referring back to this moot point. This study does cite a common origin for Egyptians and Morroccan Berbers: www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1034/j.1399-0039.2000.550307.x/abs/The paper I cited says they are not Egyptian typically, its criticising the Arab-Berber description, can't you read? And you still can't read, that link you posted said that Moroccans and egyptians are related because part, not all of their ancestry has an ancient Saharan origin. Its not speaking about all of their ancestry, I knew you couldn't properly read anything.
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Post by mike2 on May 15, 2005 2:28:06 GMT -5
Oh, man, I love this wanton debating. It's like the song that never ends. *pulls up chair and stuffs face with chips*
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Post by topdog on May 15, 2005 2:31:26 GMT -5
Too bad your great Axum was founded by Arabians and is virtually nothing in comparison to Egypt, Babylon, Greece, Rome, Carthage, India, or China. Aksum wasn't founded by Arabians.
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Post by Soomaal on May 15, 2005 2:31:43 GMT -5
Oh, man, I love this wanton debating. It's like the song that never ends. *pulls up chair and stuffs face with chips* What are they arguing about now? Lets just say Egyptians are Aborigines and call it a day, shall we?
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Post by buddyrydell on May 15, 2005 2:37:09 GMT -5
^I agree, enough arguing. Why don't they just test remains of ancient Egyptians just to settle this age-old Egyptian origins debate once and for all .
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Post by mike2 on May 15, 2005 2:37:43 GMT -5
Yeah, forget the whole sideways eight thing. If you ever want to depict a symbol of infinity, just draw caricatures of Alex and Charlie strangling each other.
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Post by Soomaal on May 15, 2005 2:38:51 GMT -5
Yeah, forget the whole sideways eight thing. If you ever want to depict a symbol of infinity, just draw caricatures of Alex and Charlie strangling each other. LMAO
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Post by mike2 on May 15, 2005 2:40:37 GMT -5
Alrighty, I'm going to hit the sack, guys. See yas tomorrow.
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