Berter
New Member
Et si on fait un tour ensemble, Nouna!?
Posts: 6
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Post by Berter on Apr 27, 2005 17:30:27 GMT -5
Who assumed anything? Negroids are indigenous to the central and southern Sahara so a black Moroccan in southern Morocco could just as well be indigenous. Blacks arent indigeneous to North-of-the-Sahara. Every NA, might he be berber or arabo-berber, with negroid features has a distant negroid ancestor--- most likely a slave, from South of the sahara. @charlie, here is the most famous singer of the atlass imazighen, Rwisha: ...And a berber girl (writing berber stuff on the blackborad)!
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Post by topdog on Apr 28, 2005 1:52:49 GMT -5
Eminem and Stephen Hawking are both white, but I would hardly call them members of some universal white culture. Hawking is a genius who has contributed immensely to the field of science. Eminem is a worthless piece of amphibian shite. What a comparison, a scientist to an entertainer, come on Mike. Just because you have a distaste for rap music that doesn't make the two culturally different. Thats a poor comparison. What you fail to realize once again is that both Cosby and 50 Cent are entertainers. Just because you do not like 50 Cent's rap music and adore Bill Cosby that doesn't mean Cosby and 50 Cent belong to the same genral African American culture. They just have different ways of entertaining people. Cosby is a comedian and actor just like Eddie Murphy, Richard Pryor, Chris Tucker, and Martin Lawrence, just because he isn't as vulgar as the others doesn't make him belong to a different culture than most African Americans. One thing I do not like is when white Americans elevate those African Americans whom they are more accepting of as somehow less African American and more mainstream American [read 'white']. You can disagree with 50 Cent all you like and praise Cosby all you like, but both are still culturally African American.
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Post by topdog on Apr 28, 2005 2:02:55 GMT -5
Blacks arent indigeneous to North-of-the-Sahara. Every NA, might he be berber or arabo-berber, with negroid features has a distant negroid ancestor--- most likely a slave, from South of the sahara. @charlie, here is the most famous singer of the atlass imazighen, Rwisha: ...And a berber girl (writing berber stuff on the blackborad)! I agree with you inasmuch that there was not a strong sub-Saharan type strain North of the Sahara, but in the central and southern Sahara the sub-Saharan type strain was very strong. The Sahara did not exist as a desert for all recorded history so there was move ment of peoples in all directions, not to also mention there were areas within the Sahara that are permeable. Analysis of early North African crania do demonstrate that most of the present day people do resemble the ancients but there was an undeniable sprinkling of intermediate and sub-Sahara type people there and these remains date back to the Mid-Holocene. It seems more likely that the predominate strain more than likely absorbed the intermediate and sub-Sahara types.
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Post by topdog on Apr 28, 2005 2:06:02 GMT -5
Jazz is an American idiom. A fusion of different musical styles. It is like the American black, a mix. African-Americans are a homogeneous people and the far majority of us do not have a white parent or very recent white ancestors, so quit referring to us as mixed race people.
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Post by SensoUnico on Apr 28, 2005 3:25:18 GMT -5
Black Americans are homogeneous! That is why they claim Egyptians are black or cannot tell the difference between a Fijian, a Bougainvillean and an ordinary common black American. There is a library in the States that contains all things to do with slavery in the USA including old photographs of chained slaves straight out of Africa. Do those slaves look like American blacks with their West African and Central African looks with pigment in the sclera of their eyes? Hell no. Charlie, pull the other leg, it plays "There is a sucker born every minute" by P.T. Barnum.
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Post by topdog on Apr 28, 2005 3:34:35 GMT -5
Black Americans are homogeneous! That is why they claim Egyptians are black or cannot tell the difference between a Fijian, a Bougainvillean and an ordinary common black American. There is a library in the States that contains all things to do with slavery in the USA including old photographs of chained slaves straight out of Africa. Do those slaves look like American blacks with their West African and Central African looks with pigment in the sclera of their eyes? Hell no. Charlie, pull the other leg, it plays "There is a sucker born every minute" by P.T. Barnum. West and Central Africans hardly look exactly alike and both populations are very diverse. African Americans descend from West Africans primarily with moderate amount of west-central African ancestry. African-Americans are a very homogeneous group and like I said the vast majority of us do not have white parents or recent white ancestry. Some African Americans do resemble Africans some do not. American blacks do not claim Egyptians as black, don't indict an entire population of 38 million people for what a few people have done.
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Post by Springa on Apr 28, 2005 12:05:44 GMT -5
I agree with most of what you wrote. But when it comes to music, it's easy to see the connection than if you compare musicians and comedians. For example, of course 50 Cent and, say, Duke Ellington are pretty different things. But both make/made music with common origins, and with undisputably black american characteristics. Eminem is not a good example I suppose, because he's just a white guy mimmicking black mannerisms in order to sell more records than the actual black dudes. But in the white music world, I would use the example of Garth Brooks, which plays horrible bland coutry pop music for rednecks against Hank Williams, a country artist who's input has changed the face of music. One is crap, the other is amazing. Both play white country music, in one form or another. Also, black culture is more homogeneous than white culture in the USA, because while the whites have all come in different waves from many different origins, the blacks have more of a common history, since all came as slaves and spent centuries developing a common culture as slaves and then as former slaves. Also, blacks are less numerous. I think the problem is attributing a single culture, a single standard of achievement to a racial or ethnic group, thinking that these groups are unified by a single culture, a core set of values. Hardly. Eminem and Stephen Hawking are both white, but I would hardly call them members of some universal white culture. Hawking is a genius who has contributed immensely to the field of science. Eminem is a worthless piece of amphibian shite. 50 Cent and Bill Cosby are both black, but I would hardly call them members of some universal black culture. Cosby is a superb member of society, who upholds core American values. 50 Cent is a worthless piece of amphibian shite. I think if you're going to recognize the existence of subcultures, you should do so on a non-racial basis if at all possible. I realize that race and culture sometimes go hand in hand. If you speak Paman, throw boomerangs at animals, wear scanty clothing, and believe in bunyips, you're probably an Australian aborigine. There's no avoiding that in cases such as this. But I'd hardly say this is the pattern with a country as diverse as America. Here I think culture should be based on language, custom, and interests. For instance, there is an English-speaking culture (language), a Victorian culture (custom), and even an anime culture (interest). These cultures overlap. Ethnic identity is different from culture. Bill Cosby and 50-Cent may identify as black, but I hardly see Cosby driving around in a bulletproof car calling people bitches and niggas. In the same vein, I don't see 50-Cent making speeches about how black kids should start pulling their pants up and stop talking trash.
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Post by buddyrydell on Apr 28, 2005 19:00:13 GMT -5
I agree with most of what you wrote. But when it comes to music, it's easy to see the connection than if you compare musicians and comedians. For example, of course 50 Cent and, say, Duke Ellington are pretty different things. But both make/made music with common origins, and with undisputably black american characteristics. Eminem is not a good example I suppose, because he's just a white guy mimmicking black mannerisms in order to sell more records than the actual black dudes. But in the white music world, I would use the example of Garth Brooks, which plays horrible bland coutry pop music for rednecks against Hank Williams, a country artist who's input has changed the face of music. One is crap, the other is amazing. Both play white country music, in one form or another. Also, black culture is more homogeneous than white culture in the USA, because while the whites have all come in different waves from many different origins, the blacks have more of a common history, since all came as slaves and spent centuries developing a common culture as slaves and then as former slaves. Also, blacks are less numerous. I agree that subcultures are often ethnically-oriented but not always. Mike does indeed have a point when he states that subcultures may or may not be based in this manner. I especially liked the illustrative examples of comparing Eminem with Steven Hawking for whites and Cosby and 50 Cent for blacks. You also bring up good points in mentioning that African-Americans feel as if they have more in common historically than European-Americans. African-Americans arrived almost exclusively from West Africa as slaves during the 17th, 18th, and early 19th centuries and had adapted the Anglo-American culture and language in order to produce an African-American culture that was mainly Anglo-American but distinct. Because they've shared many of the same experiences in the U.S., they definitely feel more of a common bond with one another than Euro-Americans do, hence they identify as African-American. With the exception of right-wing extremist rednecks, you don't see whites referring to each other as white or Euro-American or whatever else. Because European-Americans trace their ancestry to various parts of Europe and were able to preserve aspects of their heritage (unlike African slaves who were forced to assimilate), they still identify as Italian-, German-, or Irish-American, for example, despite the fact that intermarriage among different European ethnicities in America is the norm. But it's true that most European-Americans don't think of themselves as European-American, including me.
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Post by topdog on Apr 29, 2005 14:54:36 GMT -5
With the exception of right-wing extremist rednecks, you don't see whites referring to each other as white or Euro-American or whatever else. Because European-Americans trace their ancestry to various parts of Europe and were able to preserve aspects of their heritage (unlike African slaves who were forced to assimilate), they still identify as Italian-, German-, or Irish-American, for example, despite the fact that intermarriage among different European ethnicities in America is the norm. But it's true that most European-Americans don't think of themselves as European-American, including me. With the exception of recent immigrants from Italy, Germany, and Ireland, white Americans do not identify themselves by those ethnic names. Like you said later on, they identify as white Americans
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Post by mike2 on Apr 29, 2005 15:22:52 GMT -5
Charlie, would you object to being called a black American as opposed to an African American?
Personally, I think broad terms like "European American" and "African American" should be reserved for people who have actually emigrated from those continents and become American citizens in their lifetime. And that's irrespective of race.
Cause what do those kinds of terms really mean? Presumably a European American is an American from Europe, not an American whose ancestors came from Europe. Same with African American. I don't like the application of racial terms to continents, either. Charlize Theron and Berter would both have the same right to be called "African Americans" if they so desired.
A real African American would be someone like Djimon Housou. He's not just a black African by race, but he actually came to America from Africa in his lifetime. It would make more sense to call him an African American than it would to-- say, Denzel Washington, wouldn't you agree?
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Post by topdog on Apr 29, 2005 17:20:35 GMT -5
Charlie, would you object to being called a black American as opposed to an African American? Personally, I think broad terms like "European American" and "African American" should be reserved for people who have actually emigrated from those continents and become American citizens in their lifetime. And that's irrespective of race. Cause what do those kinds of terms really mean? Presumably a European American is an American from Europe, not an American whose ancestors came from Europe. Same with African American. I don't like the application of racial terms to continents, either. Charlize Theron and Berter would both have the same right to be called "African Americans" if they so desired. A real African American would be someone like Djimon Housou. He's not just a black African by race, but he actually came to America from Africa in his lifetime. It would make more sense to call him an African American than it would to-- say, Denzel Washington, wouldn't you agree? Actually to me it doesn't matter. There's nothing wrong with the term African American. We are of African descent.
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Berter
New Member
Et si on fait un tour ensemble, Nouna!?
Posts: 6
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Post by Berter on Apr 29, 2005 17:24:47 GMT -5
I agree with you inasmuch that there was not a strong sub-Saharan type strain North of the Sahara, but in the central and southern Sahara the sub-Saharan type strain was very strong. The Sahara did not exist as a desert for all recorded history so there was move ment of peoples in all directions, not to also mention there were areas within the Sahara that are permeable. Analysis of early North African crania do demonstrate that most of the present day people do resemble the ancients but there was an undeniable sprinkling of intermediate and sub-Sahara type people there and these remains date back to the Mid-Holocene. It seems more likely that the predominate strain more than likely absorbed the intermediate and sub-Sahara types. Now, you revealed yourself---Darkstarr!
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Post by topdog on Apr 29, 2005 17:40:25 GMT -5
Now, you revealed yourself---Darkstarr! I'm not Darkstar Berter, I take my sources from Keita, not outdated, antiquated books by Briggs. Like I've stated in my last post, I agree there wasn't a strong nor significant sub-Saharan type component in coastal North Africa. Thats just my opinion from what I've read from published data.
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Post by amksa on Apr 30, 2005 6:33:43 GMT -5
there was an undeniable sprinkling of intermediate and sub-Sahara type people there and these remains date back to the Mid-Holocene. It seems more likely that the predominate strain more than likely absorbed the intermediate and sub-Sahara types. yeah and i think that this intermediate people still live in Ouarzazate and participate to the great Hollywood achievements whith movies such Astérix et Cléopâtre, Lawrence of Arabia, Gladiator, the Mummy and the Mummy return ! héhé.
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Post by topdog on Apr 30, 2005 12:29:24 GMT -5
I agree with you based on the little that I know of this region. This is very fair and objective, the most fair and objective analysis I've seen so far regarding N. Africa and Egypt. I've tried to be as fair as possible within the realm of published data, not endlessly posting pictures of present day North Africans to prove my point.
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