|
Post by Yankel on Apr 21, 2005 22:12:32 GMT -5
Curious is yet another Jewish idiot, who of course doesn't have a clue how to fix Israel. Watch it, buddy. Let's keep things civil. That's simply ridiculous. Hardly anyone supports a one-state solution, Arab or Jewish. It's a bad idea. Futhermore, polling indicates that more (Jewish) Israelis than Palestinians favor this type of solution. You still haven't explained why you think an Arab-Jewish state is a good idea.
|
|
|
Post by Bar Amru on Apr 21, 2005 22:30:51 GMT -5
This is just retarded. Arabs are not controlling Egypt, Syria, or Lebanon. Arabic-speaking Egyptians, Syrians, and Lebanese are. It's not? do you know how these people adopted the Arabic language to begin with? I do and believe me it's not a pretty story, I have family evidence on that. And while these people are not Arabs originally (as you agree with me), but these Arab speaking people think of themselves that way, again I know that because I lived among them, they call themselves Arabs and their main theme is "Umma Arabeya Wa7eda" which means "One Arab Nation". I was born in Basra Iraq and do you know what they taught us there in grade 1? DEATH TO ISRAEL AND THE JEWS, this is a public school teaching grade 1 students, so like I said, there's nothing retarted in what I'm saying because I speak the truth from my experience, most of the people here don't have that experience and are filled with the propaganda they hear from the media, or others just don't like the Jews for stupid reasons like blaming them for the death of Christ. There's nothing retarted in what I said, I have nothing against Arab people, I have Arab friends who are wonderful people, but the Arab world in general needs to drop this issue with Israel.
|
|
|
Post by Curious6 on Apr 22, 2005 5:28:03 GMT -5
CooCooCachoo, let me just say that I believe you have a total and complete lack of understanding of the subject. You just speak whatever is on your mind, regardless of facts, the current situation, attitudes and perspectives of both parties, and existing peace proposals. It would take a long time to dissect all the ridiculous things you have said in order to prove you wrong, but I will address most of your (incorrect) points. Curious is yet another Jewish idiot, who of course doesn't have a clue how to fix Israel. First of all, your name-calling does nothing to help you defend your position, it actually does the contrary; lowering your status in the argument from a rational defender of one position to an ignorant person who has to resort to insults in order to make a point. ...And unfortunately, it's ignorant Jewish people like Curious who demonstrate the point that YES, Jewish people are too self-serving in regard to Israel, and Palestinians should be protected from this single-mindedness, and be granted a government that "serves their own best interests", as even president Bush has said. I am for a Palestinian state that is willing and able to live in peace with Israel and that as President Bush says, 'serves their own best interests', as long as these 'best interests' do nothing to harm, or pose a potential threat to ithe neighbour's security. Again, your single-mindedness makes you talk about how Palestinians 'should be protected from this single-mindedness', what exactly are you referring to? Shouldn't it be the Israelis who have to be defended from terrorist attacks that since the year 2000 (the rise of the Second Intifada) have surpassed the incredible number of 23,000 attacks? Don't you think it's normal seen these conditions that strict controls in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip have to be imposed (including the building of the Wall) in order to limit and prevent these sort of scandalous actions? As a further point I would like to mention, the PA has turned down numerous peace proposals, not the least of which includes the complete return of the Gaza Strip, 97% of the West Bank and approximately $30 billion in compensation (during the Barak legislature). Only the fact that they refused to accept this proposal should make you think a bit deeper into the real reasons behind this conflict. Personally, I think it's traggic that Jewish people are such block-heads about Israel. It seems obvious to me, that a one state solution is best for all people involved. ...But not with the attitude that Israeli's, and even Jewish Americans currently have. It's probably too late now, but Israel should do the right thing, and increase non-Jewish/non-Muslim immigration, and Internationalize, and standardize everyone on a common language. I wonder what attitude you are talking about, a completey reasonable, defensive and rational standpoint which rejects violence and promotes a will to co-operate in order to finish the violence? I agree that often the IDF has been brutal in its repraisals, and I dislike this, but however, we must not reverse cause and effect. The two official languages of the state are Hebrew and Arabic, a considerable feat considering that it would simply be a wild dream that any Arab state would ever adopt Hebrew as an official language. Please keep in mind that Israeli Arabs constitute about 20% of the population of the land, and the fact that their language is official is already a sign of good will. Secondly, why should it internationalise more than it is already doing, promoting Aliyah to Jews in every single country in the world? You specifically mention non- Jewish and non-Arab immigration, what would be the point of this? Should the UK encourage even further Indian or Pakistani immigration? Should Spain encourage even further S. American immigration? If all countries engage into this sort of activity it will only lead to the erosion of national values and identity, which is not desirable in most cases. (Multiculturalism provides many benefits, but it is important to preserve cultures and identities as a sign of the diversity of human populations.) But instead of honest discussion, all you get is Jewish numbskulls yammering on and on about how Israel has a right to exist and all this other silly crap. I refer you to my initial point. By the way, when I read all of your comments it just makes me laugh, you say Israel has no official language (it has two, like I explained before) so what you're doing is demonstrating your ignorance. Secondly, you have the audacity to assert that Jews don't know how to make a country, well, let me just inform you that in just less than 60 years Israel has done a lot of things. I will just highlight that is has established a fully democratic government in the Middle East, something that not all of its neighbours can boast about.
|
|
|
Post by CooCooCachoo on Apr 23, 2005 0:02:51 GMT -5
I don't think the palestinians in the west bank want to be included as Israeli citizens. Thats why they call themselves palestinians. I don't think they ever want to be called Israeli, or integrate into Israeli society. I would say a lot of them want independence, which I could understand. The other portion wants Israel off the map period. ...No. What the majority of them want is to be an equal member of a suscessful Western Democracy. A stable place where they can pursue a good living standard, and a more certain future. And they see Israel as an obstacle to this, instead of an avenue. Don't confuse what the average Palestinian would want, compared to militant thugs who enjoy a reputation of being a badass. Thuggish militants sell Palestinians on the idea that independance is the only way to acheive stability. ...And dumb zionist Israeli's help them by opening their big yaps.
|
|
|
Post by k5125 on Apr 23, 2005 0:29:47 GMT -5
...No. What the majority of them want is to be an equal member of a suscessful Western Democracy. A stable place where they can pursue a good living standard, and a more certain future. And they see Israel as an obstacle to this, instead of an avenue. Well whoever sees Israel as an obstacle at this point in time is very mistaken. Israel is a very successful western democracy. Its one of the best countries to live in the Middle East definately if you are Jewish, but also if you are an arab too. The only things that makes it unstable are the suicide bombings. That is why there is an ugly security wall and fence now. Who is to blame for this? The people that carry out these slaughters. Not the victims. I also think its very hard to give a good estimate on what the majority of the palestinian population wants. I think its safe to say that a good number want freedom and a better life and to live in peace with the jews while yet others (and it looks like a good number as well) want Jews dead. Don't confuse what the average Palestinian would want, compared to militant thugs who enjoy a reputation of being a badass. Its not just a few thugs. Have you ever seen these Hamas or even Fatah rallies? Thousands upon thousands of people are there and all they shout is death to the jews. Not to mention all the other organizations who support them outside of Israel like Hizbollah. These are not just a few people. This is a large portion of the population. Thuggish militants sell Palestinians on the idea that independance is the only way to acheive stability. ...And dumb zionist Israeli's help them by opening their big yaps. It depends on what you mean by zionist israelis. If you are talking about some crazed settlers, then yeah you are correct. The comparison isn't the same though to Hamas and its following. Anyway, one state is a bad idea. Neither party wants it understandably. A palestinian state that lives side by side with Israel is a far better and realistic alternative.
|
|
|
Post by CooCooCachoo on Apr 23, 2005 0:33:41 GMT -5
It's not? do you know how these people adopted the Arabic language to begin with? I do and believe me it's not a pretty story, I have family evidence on that. And while these people are not Arabs originally (as you agree with me), but these Arab speaking people think of themselves that way, again I know that because I lived among them, they call themselves Arabs and their main theme is "Umma Arabeya Wa7eda" which means "One Arab Nation". I was born in Basra Iraq and do you know what they taught us there in grade 1? DEATH TO ISRAEL AND THE JEWS, this is a public school teaching grade 1 students, so like I said, there's nothing retarted in what I'm saying because I speak the truth from my experience, most of the people here don't have that experience and are filled with the propaganda they hear from the media, or others just don't like the Jews for stupid reasons like blaming them for the death of Christ. There's nothing retarted in what I said, I have nothing against Arab people, I have Arab friends who are wonderful people, but the Arab world in general needs to drop this issue with Israel. That's exactly the point. Ethnic nationalism is the problem. And Israel, is significant in the region for more then just democracy. ...It's the pluralism it supports. But instead of billing itself as a diverse nation, Israeli zionist lunatics blah blah blah about a Jewish State. ...And that sets off all kinds of problems in Europe who see it as a form of uber-nationalism. Israel could help the United States, not by ceding territory, but by getting the zionists to seriously shut the f*ck up. It makes Europe an even bigger bunch of pompous jack-asses who then feel justified to sue US companies for billions of dollars. ...Oh, and Barkhu... ...I realize you speak several languages, so don't take this the wrong way... ...But the English word is "RETARDED".
|
|
|
Post by CooCooCachoo on Apr 23, 2005 1:00:51 GMT -5
Watch it, buddy. Let's keep things civil. That's simply ridiculous. Hardly anyone supports a one-state solution, Arab or Jewish. It's a bad idea. Futhermore, polling indicates that more (Jewish) Israelis than Palestinians favor this type of solution. ...Other peoples have been equally divisive before uniting. Of course polls are low in support of this. Nationalists on both sides have been fighting and killing each other, and civilians in the process. Ok... ....Fair enough. It's not so much an Arab-Jewish state that is a good idea, as much as a state where that kind of thing is an incidental, and not a major consideration. What I'm proposing is not an Arab-Jewish State. I'm advocating non-Jewish/non-Arab immigration. Israel would remain a state that is very supportive of it's Jewish traditions, but would be a more welcoming state. Why is it a good idea? ...Because places where ethnicity don't matter are economic draws for people to do business, and live a good life.
|
|
|
Post by CooCooCachoo on Apr 23, 2005 1:31:24 GMT -5
Well whoever sees Israel as an obstacle at this point in time is very mistaken. Israel is a very successful western democracy. Its one of the best countries to live in the Middle East definately if you are Jewish, but also if you are an arab too. ...Yeah, that's my point. No suicide bombers came from inside Israel. Only the disenfranchised areas. The solution is to enable people in these areas the opportunity to be a part of Israel. ...Not encourage Palestinian seperatism. Palestinians will have to choose for themselves, but militants should be quelled in a way that doesn't interfere with Palestians livelihoods, and their right to be a part of Israel if they so choose. Quit being a ninny. No one's blaming potentially short-term security measures in this thread. ...yep. They do that on purpose to conflate their numbers. It's a deceptive show of strength. Their appeal has more to do with Israel's over-reaction. Their percentage is smaller then it looks. Those countries have their own problems, and invite a further problem with the very real prospect of regeime change for those type of actions. ...A one state solution is a bad idea, except when compared to what a 2-state solution would really mean. Israel has a sizable Arabic speaking population, that in many ways still isn't integrated. Go look at Northern Ireland to see what happened with a 10% Catholic minority in the North. Although a 100% Catholic State was established in the South, the 10% chose to stay, and today there is a 40%+ Catholic pressence in the North. ...That's Israel's future with a 2-State solution. 2-State is merely a way of thanking Palestinian militants for the violence, and handing them over a nice reward. A 2-State solution would benefit the militants more then it would average Palestinians.
|
|
|
Post by CooCooCachoo on Apr 23, 2005 1:48:34 GMT -5
CooCooCachoo, let me just say that I believe you have a total and complete lack of understanding of the subject. You just speak whatever is on your mind, regardless of facts, the current situation, attitudes and perspectives of both parties, and existing peace proposals. It would take a long time to dissect all the ridiculous things you have said in order to prove you wrong, but I will address most of your (incorrect) points. First of all, your name-calling does nothing to help you defend your position, it actually does the contrary; lowering your status in the argument from a rational defender of one position to an ignorant person who has to resort to insults in order to make a point. I am for a Palestinian state that is willing and able to live in peace with Israel and that as President Bush says, 'serves their own best interests', as long as these 'best interests' do nothing to harm, or pose a potential threat to ithe neighbour's security. Again, your single-mindedness makes you talk about how Palestinians 'should be protected from this single-mindedness', what exactly are you referring to? Shouldn't it be the Israelis who have to be defended from terrorist attacks that since the year 2000 (the rise of the Second Intifada) have surpassed the incredible number of 23,000 attacks? Don't you think it's normal seen these conditions that strict controls in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip have to be imposed (including the building of the Wall) in order to limit and prevent these sort of scandalous actions? As a further point I would like to mention, the PA has turned down numerous peace proposals, not the least of which includes the complete return of the Gaza Strip, 97% of the West Bank and approximately $30 billion in compensation (during the Barak legislature). Only the fact that they refused to accept this proposal should make you think a bit deeper into the real reasons behind this conflict. I wonder what attitude you are talking about, a completey reasonable, defensive and rational standpoint which rejects violence and promotes a will to co-operate in order to finish the violence? I agree that often the IDF has been brutal in its repraisals, and I dislike this, but however, we must not reverse cause and effect. The two official languages of the state are Hebrew and Arabic, a considerable feat considering that it would simply be a wild dream that any Arab state would ever adopt Hebrew as an official language. Please keep in mind that Israeli Arabs constitute about 20% of the population of the land, and the fact that their language is official is already a sign of good will. Secondly, why should it internationalise more than it is already doing, promoting Aliyah to Jews in every single country in the world? You specifically mention non- Jewish and non-Arab immigration, what would be the point of this? Should the UK encourage even further Indian or Pakistani immigration? Should Spain encourage even further S. American immigration? If all countries engage into this sort of activity it will only lead to the erosion of national values and identity, which is not desirable in most cases. (Multiculturalism provides many benefits, but it is important to preserve cultures and identities as a sign of the diversity of human populations.) I refer you to my initial point. By the way, when I read all of your comments it just makes me laugh, you say Israel has no official language (it has two, like I explained before) so what you're doing is demonstrating your ignorance. Secondly, you have the audacity to assert that Jews don't know how to make a country, well, let me just inform you that in just less than 60 years Israel has done a lot of things. I will just highlight that is has established a fully democratic government in the Middle East, something that not all of its neighbours can boast about. ...I'm not going to respond to everything in your post. ...A lot of it demonstrates how you're susceptible to believing your own propaganda, and not capable of original thought. A couple things... Palestinians do not have a central authority. That is the problem. If you don't understand this, you should really just be quiet. As for the language thing... Again, the fact that Israel can't get everyone to standardize on a common language is not to be celebrated. ...It's problematic, and symptomatic of the failure to create a cohesive multi-ethnic state. Sure... immigration is good, when done in a regulated and controlled manner. If these groups integrate, and speak the local language, and repsect the laws, it offers the bennefit of a boosted economy, and good citizens. You're somewhat of a hypocrit Curious. You tout the virtous of good will with the language thing, but then are a relatively xenophobic schmuck.
|
|
|
Post by Bar Amru on Apr 23, 2005 5:00:38 GMT -5
...Oh, and Barkhu... ...I realize you speak several languages, so don't take this the wrong way... ...But the English word is "RETARDED". I'm not gonna go into details about this issue with you since you have no respect nor manners, it's pretty obvious that you have no personal experience from that area what so ever so you're pretty much just giving me your opinion, the cow's opinion is just as good if you ask me.
|
|
|
Post by Curious6 on Apr 23, 2005 5:47:38 GMT -5
LOL at your comments CooCooCachoo. Seriously, 60 years of conflict, numerous peace proposals rejected, four wars, a security fence to limit or prevent further attacks, but...wait! Here comes CooCooCachoo, holding a PhD in Middle Eastern History who pretends the problem is very easy to solve!! All that has to be done (according to you) is to implement a one-state solution where non- Jewish and non-Arab immigration should be truly encouraged and the population's language should be homogenised to Hebrew as a way to create a 'cohesive, multi-etnic state'. Paradoxically, you say the state should preserve its Jewish traditions, a thing which would be very hard to do if it becomes a melting pot of all different cultures à la USA (nothing bad with this model of state, just realise it's impossible to do both things simultaneuously, and that the USA is clearly an exception in today's world). ...I'm not going to respond to everything in your post. ...A lot of it demonstrates how you're susceptible to believing your own propaganda, and not capable of original thought. Excellent way to debunk what I said, call it 'propaganda' and say I'm not capable of 'original thought'. True, if that means considering historic facts and the current situation details as a way to form an opinion is not being capable of 'original thought', but I prefer doing that than inventing facts or ideas that support an already pre-conceived view of the situation like you do. Palestinians do not have a central authority. That is the problem. If you don't understand this, you should really just be quiet.. Haha, if you don't acknowledge yourself that the Palestinians have an authority called the (surprise!) Palestinian Authority, established as part of the Oslo accords, then you are the one that should be quiet. Another issue is that it does not faithfully represent the Palestinians' views (however, Abbas was elected early this year) but this point of discussion should actually fit into a more general discussion of whether Heads of Government do actually faithfully represent their population's views. Again, the fact that Israel can't get everyone to standardize on a common language is not to be celebrated. ...It's problematic, and symptomatic of the failure to create a cohesive multi-ethnic state... To start off, many states have more than one official language (The Netherlands, Spain, Switzerland, all belonging to the First World and some among the world's wealthiest nations). It is quite common in the world for states to have more than one official language! You say that it's 'problematic', but why? First you try to celebrate multiculturalism as the way to go ahead and attract economic prosperity, and then you insist on standardising one official language. It's on the verge of being a paradox. Sure... immigration is good, when done in a regulated and controlled manner. If these groups integrate, and speak the local language, and repsect the laws, it offers the bennefit of a boosted economy, and good citizens. You're somewhat of a hypocrit Curious. You tout the virtous of good will with the language thing, but then are a relatively xenophobic schmuck. Look, I won't address your stupid and silly insults anymore. I agree immigration is a good thing, and immigration is more or less equivalent to Aliyah so if that's what you are referring to it's already being done full-scale. I just don't see the purpose of promoting non- Jewish immigration to the state, it would miss the purpose of its creation and existence fully. You may call it a 'xenophobic' attitude, but I can assure you that if you tell most citizens of countries of Western Europe that their states should become multi-cultural, ergo eroding their national or regional values, traditions, history and culture they wouldn't be satisfied at all. As a side-note, I would just like to make the point that Israeli Arabs constitute about 20% of the population of the state, a figure for a minority group which considerably surpasses the figures for minority groups in most of the developed nations. Also, Arabs in Israel are more well-off than in ANY of the surrounding nations. This is reflected by statistics which give them the highest literacy rate, life expectancy, and general standard of living among their Arab brethren in other countries. There are also quite a few Arab groups who have publicly expressed their desire to stay in Israel if a Palestinian state gets established. This should get you thinking a bit, instead of continuing your silly charade.
|
|
|
Post by CooCooCachoo on Apr 23, 2005 8:20:52 GMT -5
LOL at your comments CooCooCachoo. Seriously, 60 years of conflict, numerous peace proposals rejected, four wars, a security fence to limit or prevent further attacks, but...wait! Here comes CooCooCachoo, holding a PhD in Middle Eastern History who pretends the problem is very easy to solve!! All that has to be done (according to you) is to implement a one-state solution where non- Jewish and non-Arab immigration should be truly encouraged and the population's language should be homogenised to Hebrew as a way to create a 'cohesive, multi-etnic state'. Paradoxically, you say the state should preserve its Jewish traditions, a thing which would be very hard to do if it becomes a melting pot of all different cultures à la USA (nothing bad with this model of state, just realise it's impossible to do both things simultaneuously, and that the USA is clearly an exception in today's world). ...Often Orthodox Jewish religious leaders create more and more esoteric standards in an effort to exclude people (JEWISH PEOPLE) from the Jewish label in order to suit theor own purposes. Juddaism is practiced in many countries, successfully, with Kosher foods being prepared, and traditions honored. ...And you know what? People like Jews in these places. Strict Orthodox can have their own properties where they do as they like. Just like the Homish and other similar groups. An integrated Israel would be able to accomodate them, and non-Arab immigrants, and immigrants in general usually work hard to fit in, and respect the local population. Most Israelis and even American Jews are too beleaguered to really have any optomism. This is clouding their judgement at a time that they really need to think long term. Abbas' election is a good thing. Palestinians voting is a good thing. But his authority is limited in a country where militant factions vie for control. The true test of democracy is not Iraq. ...It's the West Bank. It was a gutsy move on the part of Israel to do this. But the West Bank may be too divided to offer peaceful Palestinians a good life. Israel shouldn't put too much hope in Abbas being able to end the violence. Even with support and respect from Israel. ...It may fall apart. Language is too important a tool. It shouldn't be included in the cultural differences we all celebrate. You're thinking of immigration as something that erodes a national identity. But the reality is that Immigration if done correctly would strengthen a Hebrew speaking majority. And it would build bridges to Palestinians who may be bitter towards Jews, but may find it easier to be part of a Hebrew speaking society that also has many non-Jews as well. Even today, some Blacks do not like WASPs. And they fixate on the history of slavery. But they find an English speaking country that welcomes them, because there are plenty of other non-WASPs who weren't involved in slavery whom they can be friends with. The United States as a country does not risk division any longer over the issue of slavery. ...So it could be for Israel who faces the VERY real likelihood of division over this issue. Yeah, I realize all these things. I think Israel has done a lot of positive things. Which is why it's tragic and flat out wrong that a few militants can cause Israel such problems in the world community. Zionist Israel is not the face Israel should show. They should remind the world of all the good things they have done. And because of these things, gain the worlds trust to have the moral authority to allow a single state with various provinces of a Palestinian State to decide the level of integration they would like with Israel. The futures of the two people are entertwined. A 2-state solution may sell like it's a separation, but it's not. The Israeli people should be careful about what their politicians are trying to sell them. Liberals doing the "right thing" is not necessarily best for the Palestinians either. A Palestinian state is land-locked, has limited resources, and won't necessarily have the best education system. This is not the best opportunity for Palestinians either. ...What would be best, (and they will have to decide this for themselves), is to be peaceful equal members of an Israeli society. ...But sadly today, most can't fathom that.
|
|
|
Post by CooCooCachoo on Apr 23, 2005 8:24:12 GMT -5
I'm not gonna go into details about this issue with you since you have no respect nor manners, it's pretty obvious that you have no personal experience from that area what so ever... ...You're right, I don't. A cow's opinion is better. If you don't like what the cow is saying, at least you can eat it. ;D
|
|
|
Post by Curious6 on Apr 23, 2005 8:58:30 GMT -5
OK, your opinions seem less biased now.
|
|
|
Post by Yankel on Apr 23, 2005 15:04:38 GMT -5
Regardless of what you may have seen on CNN, Israel is not about colonialism. Israel is not North America. Israel is the Jewish state. Jews have been persecuted in their host nations for 2,000 years, and now they can go home. That may sound sappy to an American gentile like yourself, but I don't expect you to understand. You're not Jewish.
Not really. I'm Reform, but I wouldn't call halacha esoteric.
In the US and Canada this is true, but anti-Semitism is rampant in Europe.
|
|