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Post by mike2 on Apr 20, 2005 22:12:33 GMT -5
Sorry, but I just don't know what else to call a situation where people are needlessly bombing, cursing, killing each other for land both sides have equal rights to. I don't think there's any polite way to express the horrible truth of a senseless fight. That said, I don't mean any disrespect. I just get frustrated about this.
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Post by CooCooCachoo on Apr 21, 2005 6:59:11 GMT -5
You know what's stupid, the fact is Arabs just don't want a Non-Arab country in there period, I don't see why Israel should give land to the Palestinian Arabs, I mean look at the Arab land in there, you have the entire Middle East filled with Arab countries and they all claim their Arab brotherhood, if that's the case then why should'nt the Palestinian Arabs go to another Arab country near by like Syria and Jordon and live there among their Arab brothers in peace and forget about Israel? is't this fair? If I was an Arab I would'nt talk about the Jews stealing land because technically speaking the Arab land is in the Arabian desert, not Mesopotamia, not Levant, and not North Africa, these lands belong to its native people and it's been stolen by the Arabs, if we go by the Palestinian example then give the Assyrians their land back, give the Christians of the Levant (Who call themselves Arameans and Phonecians) their land back, give the Egyptians their land back, and give the Berbers their land back too, because the reality is these are not Arab lands, they are stolen and invaded by the Arabs who keep claiming Israel is their land too. I say ditto to Israel and I hope they keep the land. The Israelis don't WANT to keep the land you dumb nincompoop. A majority of Israelis want to cede the West Bank territories and Gaza to some kind of Palestinian state. It's only the wacky settlers dressed up like 19th century serfs who want to keep the land. That being said, I agree with you on the point that Israel should not cede territory, and should work to become one nation. But do you UNDERSTAND that keeping the land means accepting a significantly high numbers of Palestinians as citizens in what is supposed to be a "Jewish" state? Fine... Keep the land. ...But grant the Palestinian equal rights. Oooops!!! ...Another 10 Palestinian babies were just born.
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Post by Curious6 on Apr 21, 2005 9:01:56 GMT -5
Seriously, sometimes I am quite amazed at how ignorant people are about the history of the situation.
First of all, the land was never stolen, during the Ottoman rule, land was legitimately bought by Jews from absentee land-holders. Therefore, in no way is it stealing land, since it was legally bought and immigration to the lands was allowed both under Ottoman rule (prior to the British Mandate) and then also under the British Mandate. Not only that, but the intention of the British Mandate in that area was also to implement the promises given by the Balfour Declaration of 1917, which stated that Palestine (which then also included all of Jordan) should be a territory in which to establish a Jewish National Home (even though in 1922/1923 78% of the territory was stripped away). This said, during these times there was also a very large Arab immigration from surrounding Arab nations, so whatever way you look at it, it was simply not 'stolen'.
Secondly, the territory that was granted to the Jews by the 1947 UN General Assembly Resolution 181 gave the Jews 54% of the land, in which they were a 2/3 majority. The land was equally split between both parties (and each party got the land where they were the majority). Interestingly, approximately 75% of the land given to Jews was the Negev desert, but the land given to Arabs had large portions of very fertile land.
Just take into account these two points, it should be clear that nothing was 'stolen'. By the way, I truly hope that violence in the Middle East will end as soon as possible
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Post by Curious6 on Apr 21, 2005 9:09:10 GMT -5
By the way Mike the Briton, please don't call it 'a puddle of shit', that is just a total lack of respect.
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Post by CooCooCachoo on Apr 21, 2005 19:19:30 GMT -5
Curious is yet another Jewish idiot, who of course doesn't have a clue how to fix Israel.
...No one pointing fingers, or citing History is going to add anything to the process of finding a future for both people.
The question is, should Palestinians be given a piece of territory that Jewish Israeli's are not entitled to camp on, settle on, rule, etc.
...And unfortunately, it's ignorant Jewish people like Curious who demonstrate the point that YES, Jewish people are too self-serving in regard to Israel, and Palestinians should be protected from this single-mindedness, and be granted a government that "serves their own best interests", as even president Bush has said.
Personally, I think it's traggic that Jewish people are such block-heads about Israel. It seems obvious to me, that a one state solution is best for all people involved. ...But not with the attitude that Israeli's, and even Jewish Americans currently have.
It's probably too late now, but Israel should do the right thing, and increase non-Jewish/non-Muslim immigration, and Internationalize, and standardize everyone on a common language.
But instead of honest discussion, all you get is Jewish numbskulls yammering on and on about how Israel has a right to exist and all this other silly crap.
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Post by k5125 on Apr 21, 2005 19:35:18 GMT -5
I think Curious did raise some good points though about the purchasing of lands under Ottoman rule.
I am for a palestinian state, but I think you have to be careful when it comes to non-jewish immigration.
A lot of people want to destroy Israel, and I think this desire would become more of a reality if the state became overrun with non jews.
Its important to look into the past because many times we forget what really happened.
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Post by k5125 on Apr 21, 2005 19:41:19 GMT -5
It's probably too late now, but Israel should do the right thing, and increase non-Jewish/non-Muslim immigration, and Internationalize, and standardize everyone on a common language. But instead of honest discussion, all you get is Jewish numbskulls yammering on and on about how Israel has a right to exist and all this other silly crap. I could be wrong but I don't think a lot of arabs want to speak Hebrew as a common language, or give up arabic. And I can't say I necessarily disagree with them. Why should you have to give up arabic if its your native lang? So I strongly disagree, I think that is not the right thing for Jews or for Arabs.
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Post by CooCooCachoo on Apr 21, 2005 20:20:55 GMT -5
I could be wrong but I don't think a lot of arabs want to speak Hebrew as a common language, or give up arabic. And I can't say I necessarily disagree with them. Why should you have to give up arabic if its your native lang? So I strongly disagree, I think that is not the right thing for Jews or for Arabs. Thanks for proving me right again. Do you think everyone wanted to speak English? But are Blacks, Native Americans, and everyone else who can live as equals better off today for this standard? Afraid of non-Jewish Immigration? ...You have Muslims exploding themselves in the streets to kill Jews, and you're more worried about non-Jewish Immigration. (What's wrong with hard working Chinese or Africans who would be willing to speak Hebrew.) At current rates, Palestinians will outnumber Jews in another 50-100 years. SO what becomes of the Jewish State then? ...Trust me. Let in the immigrants. Jews really don't have any idea what it takes to form a country. ...They really don't.
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Post by alexandrian on Apr 21, 2005 20:56:19 GMT -5
If I was an Arab I would'nt talk about the Jews stealing land because technically speaking the Arab land is in the Arabian desert, not Mesopotamia, not Levant, and not North Africa, these lands belong to its native people and it's been stolen by the Arabs, if we go by the Palestinian example then give the Assyrians their land back, give the Christians of the Levant (Who call themselves Arameans and Phonecians) their land back, give the Egyptians their land back, and give the Berbers their land back too, because the reality is these are not Arab lands, they are stolen and invaded by the Arabs who keep claiming Israel is their land too. I say ditto to Israel and I hope they keep the land. This is just retarded. Arabs are not controlling Egypt, Syria, or Lebanon. Arabic-speaking Egyptians, Syrians, and Lebanese are. As for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, rest assured it's not so simple. Israel was not founded in a peaceful, everyone-goes-home-happy agreement. The chief reason for the signing of the Balfour Declaration was the fact that Jewish bankers heavily subsidized Allied battles in World War I and the Allies needed Jewish support as they did not want the Jews to go forth and support the Central Europeans, which is where many Jews called home at the time. The partition of Palestine was merely a compromise. Moreover, Palestine was not always at the heart of the Zionist movement. Original, true Zionists did not care where their land was, and the first two locations that came to mind were Uganda and Argentina, and according to one Arab author, Qatar. Furthermore, the British partition of Palestine was a complete violation of numerous agreements between Britain and the Saudi sheiks. There's also some drama behind the Sykes-Picot agreement, which I will read up on and try to summarize on this board. Early on in its inception Israel only had 54% of the land. This was a just and equitable solution. Unfortunately, yet understandably, Arab nations did not see this the same way and they quickly went to war until the Rhodes ARmistice was signed between egypt and Israel in 1948. I believe Israel has all the rights to the land it received in the UN-Mandated Partition, yet no rights to the wars it started later. Most Israeli land was taken in the Six-day War, a pre-emptive war begun by Israeli troops. Also, lest us not forget that Israel has conducted outrageous acts of state terrorism that haven't been replicated by its Mashreq neighbors. Two case-in-point examples would be the Lavon Affair and the USS Liberty as well as the kidnapping of Vanunu. That all said, Israel does have a genuine right to existence and I believe it can be a beacon of light and progress to its Arab neighbors. As long as it sticks to its original share of the land, everything should work out well. From what I hear, Tel Aviv is truly a liveral gem on the Mediterranean, and that makes me happy and, in an odd way, proud. Proud because if they can do it, so can we. Right now I'm ecstatic about closer relations between Egypt and Israel. First the co-operation over Taba attacks, then meeting between high cabinet officials, then the QIZ agreement, then the sending of ambassadors, meeting of leaders, peace summit in Egypt, Israel importing Egyptian LNG, and now Egyptian guards taking over peacekeeping duties in the Gaza strip. Gotta love it...
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Post by CooCooCachoo on Apr 21, 2005 21:13:52 GMT -5
I'm afraid you're liberally optomistic in a way that is dangerous for Israel.
...More like it will be an excuse for Arabs to fixate and hate on.
Egyptians taking over security duties? ...Oh good. I'm sure the rocket attacks will stop.
I'm not talking about Israel making concessions to show how flexible they are. I'm talking about equitable policy that would be the best for both people. ...And that includes a common language.
But for some reason Israel can't even do that. 50 years after it's founded, and it doesn't even have an official language.
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Post by k5125 on Apr 21, 2005 21:26:15 GMT -5
Thanks for proving me right again. Do you think everyone wanted to speak English? But are Blacks, Native Americans, and everyone else who can live as equals better off today for this standard? Afraid of non-Jewish Immigration? ...You have Muslims exploding themselves in the streets to kill Jews, and you're more worried about non-Jewish Immigration. (What's wrong with hard working Chinese or Africans who would be willing to speak Hebrew.) At current rates, Palestinians will outnumber Jews in another 50-100 years. SO what becomes of the Jewish State then? ...Trust me. Let in the immigrants. Jews really don't have any idea what it takes to form a country. ...They really don't. Actually, Israel has tons of immigrants that love Israel, like Japanese Israelis for instance. I think the problem is not with them, the Israelis are scared of people that want to blow them up, which happens to be a lot of people unfortunately. This isn't about non jews, because from what I've heard, Druze love Israel.
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Post by k5125 on Apr 21, 2005 21:29:14 GMT -5
This is just retarded. Arabs are not controlling Egypt, Syria, or Lebanon. Arabic-speaking Egyptians, Syrians, and Lebanese are. As for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, rest assured it's not so simple. Israel was not founded in a peaceful, everyone-goes-home-happy agreement. The chief reason for the signing of the Balfour Declaration was the fact that Jewish bankers heavily subsidized Allied battles in World War I and the Allies needed Jewish support as they did not want the Jews to go forth and support the Central Europeans, which is where many Jews called home at the time. The partition of Palestine was merely a compromise. Moreover, Palestine was not always at the heart of the Zionist movement. Original, true Zionists did not care where their land was, and the first two locations that came to mind were Uganda and Argentina, and according to one Arab author, Qatar. Furthermore, the British partition of Palestine was a complete violation of numerous agreements between Britain and the Saudi sheiks. There's also some drama behind the Sykes-Picot agreement, which I will read up on and try to summarize on this board. Early on in its inception Israel only had 54% of the land. This was a just and equitable solution. Unfortunately, yet understandably, Arab nations did not see this the same way and they quickly went to war until the Rhodes ARmistice was signed between egypt and Israel in 1948. I believe Israel has all the rights to the land it received in the UN-Mandated Partition, yet no rights to the wars it started later. Most Israeli land was taken in the Six-day War, a pre-emptive war begun by Israeli troops. Also, lest us not forget that Israel has conducted outrageous acts of state terrorism that haven't been replicated by its Mashreq neighbors. Two case-in-point examples would be the Lavon Affair and the USS Liberty as well as the kidnapping of Vanunu. That all said, Israel does have a genuine right to existence and I believe it can be a beacon of light and progress to its Arab neighbors. As long as it sticks to its original share of the land, everything should work out well. From what I hear, Tel Aviv is truly a liveral gem on the Mediterranean, and that makes me happy and, in an odd way, proud. Proud because if they can do it, so can we. Right now I'm ecstatic about closer relations between Egypt and Israel. First the co-operation over Taba attacks, then meeting between high cabinet officials, then the QIZ agreement, then the sending of ambassadors, meeting of leaders, peace summit in Egypt, Israel importing Egyptian LNG, and now Egyptian guards taking over peacekeeping duties in the Gaza strip. Gotta love it... Indeed. It would be great one day for Egypt and Israel to be strong allies, where arabs and jews can get along.
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Post by k5125 on Apr 21, 2005 21:31:43 GMT -5
I'm afraid you're liberally optomistic in a way that is dangerous for Israel. ...More like it will be an excuse for Arabs to fixate and hate on. Egyptians taking over security duties? ...Oh good. I'm sure the rocket attacks will stop. I'm not talking about Israel making concessions to show how flexible they are. I'm talking about equitable policy that would be the best for both people. ...And that includes a common language. But for some reason Israel can't even do that. 50 years after it's founded, and it doesn't even have an official language. What do you mean? Hebrew, Arabic, and English (as I recently found out) are official. Hebrew serves the Jews. Arabic serves the arabs. English serves both parties and everyone else living in the country. So whats the problem?
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Post by CooCooCachoo on Apr 21, 2005 21:35:56 GMT -5
I'm tired of Israel NOT asserting it's MORAL authority. Israel has 1 million Palestinian citizens, and they have DEMONSTRATED how they protect pluralism. (More then one language is going to an extreme, but in many ways they have been good.)
I'm f*cking tired of Israel being defended by loud-mouth Zionists who talk about the Jewishness of it, when the reality is anything but.
Israel should expand immigration, standardize on Hebrew, and give Palestinians in the West bank the avenues to become Israeli citizens.
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Post by k5125 on Apr 21, 2005 22:12:13 GMT -5
I don't think the palestinians in the west bank want to be included as Israeli citizens. Thats why they call themselves palestinians. I don't think they ever want to be called Israeli, or integrate into Israeli society.
I would say a lot of them want independence, which I could understand.
The other portion wants Israel off the map period.
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