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Post by topdog on Mar 20, 2005 4:43:18 GMT -5
To assume that ancient Upper Egyptians were somehow closer to Ancient East Africans than to their own Lower Egyptian compatriots is ridiculous. Instead of saying its ridiculous post some studies to support your claims. Otherwise, I'm not going to listen to any of your 'anti-Afrocentric' gibberish. Shomarka Keita is a peer-reviewed, professionally trained anthropologist and a one time student of Lawrence Angel, far from an Afrocentrist of West African descent attempting to claim Egypt for West Africans. Sources 1. Human remains: The direct evidence for debating the question is the ancient population as it survives in human remains. There are two dominant problems:
1. published physical anthropological study of groups remains astonishingly rare, with most attention going to studies of a single individual
2. objectivity remains elusive within the race debate, and is perhaps impossible
The contributions by Keita are outstanding exceptions to the general lack of both demographic study and objectivity (Keita 1990; Keita 1992). DNA research is expected to transform this debate, though self-critical consciousness is not always displayed by proponents.www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/social/race.htmlCalling him an Afrocentrist to attempt to refute his studies is an automatic strawman, even the outdated Carleton Coon noted that Upper Egyptians were closer to East Africans and were morphologically distinct from Lower Egyptians. I'm ending this never-ending fight about Egypt, since I never claimed Egypt at all. You can fight with yourself.
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ghedi
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Post by ghedi on Mar 20, 2005 10:57:45 GMT -5
I'm new here and I must admit that I'm appalled by the level of ignorance of some of dodona's members. Igu and Alexandrian (the so-called North Africans) are worthy of mention in this regard. To start with, one of them claimed that East Africans(e.g. Somalis and Ethiopians) are not black and that they are more related to West and East Asians than to West Africans. Genetic studies clearly demonstrate how outlandish these claims are. Images do it better. -Pardon me if I'm wrong, but no pure West Asians look like any of the people below. Also consider that I'm actually East African.....Ethiopian who grew up in Ethiopia&&Kenya&&Nigeria and now lives in the US. Ethiopians Somalis Ramses2? Other East, Central & West Africans(of the so-called Nilotic and Congoid/Bantu groups) Notice that the girl(left) could easily pass for Somali Nilotic but could pass for Ethiopian or Somali Bantu, at least her name is, but is probably mixed Somali.....uh,no! Is from Central Africa and speaks a Bantu language Both Bantus - guy on the left could easily pass for Somali or Ethiopian though Bantu that could pass for an Ethiopian or somali Alexandrian also said something about Ancient Egypt having closer cultural ties to West Asia and Southern Europe. If that's the case, why did the Kushites, the Meroites etc have pyramids, use hieroglyphics, have divine kingship, have similar gods and goddesses, have similar clothing, coming of age rituals etc ....traits that were not shared, for the most part, by outlying west asian and southern European groups? And please....don't attribute it solely to Egypt's conquest of Lower Nubia because Egypt also conquered regions in West Asia. Moreover, many aspects of Nubian culture, despite their similarities to ancient Egyptian culture, were unique and are believed to have been developed independently by the Nubians. An apt example can be drawn from a quote from an Egyptian who happens to be an expert on Ancient Egypt "The pyramids in Ta-Seti[Nubia] differ form the Kemetian pyramid,because the Nubian pyramids have underground chapels built in to them. The body was buried into a underground temple,where priests preformed rites. The pyramids are unique to Nubia. The concept of the pyramid probally comes from pit tombs in pre-dyanstic Egypt and A-grop Nubia. " For comparisons on Ancient Egypt's neighboring civ's see: www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001305.html Egyptian troops(below) Nubian soldiers(below) Nubian pyramids Nubian pyramids
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Berter
New Member
Et si on fait un tour ensemble, Nouna!?
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Post by Berter on Mar 20, 2005 11:13:16 GMT -5
Didnt you notice a white virus among your negroe crowd...!? Serious damages are to be expected ...
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Post by Crimson Guard on Mar 20, 2005 11:59:55 GMT -5
<<Alexandrian also said something about Ancient Egypt having closer cultural ties to West Asia and Southern Europe. If that's the case, why did the Kushites, the Meroites etc have pyramids, use hieroglyphics, have divine kingship, have similar gods and goddesses, have similar clothing, coming of age rituals etc ....traits that were not shared, for the most part, by outlying west asian and southern European groups? And please....don't attribute it solely to Egypt's conquest of Lower Nubia because Egypt also conquered regions in West Asia. Moreover, many aspects of Nubian culture, despite their similarities to ancient Egyptian culture, were unique and are believed to have been developed independently by the Nubians. >>
Because of the Spread of Eygptian culture into Nubia,not the other way around.
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Post by topdog on Mar 20, 2005 13:03:31 GMT -5
Because of the Spread of Eygptian culture into Nubia, not the other way around. hmmph! An Outline of Nubian HistoryPeter Lacovara Assistant Curator of Egyptian, Nubian and Near Eastern Art Museum of Fine Arts, BostonCited from Egypt in AfricaTheodore Celenko p. 92 Prehistoric Nubia
7000 B.C.-3100 B.C.Near modern-day Khartoum is the oldest known record of settled African civilization. This civilization, called Khartoum Mesolithic culture (c 7000 B.C.), is noted for its settled way of life and pottery production that seemingly preceded agriculture, unlike development in early Near Eastern cultures. These early Nubians subsisted on hunting and fishing, but their remarkably sophisticated ceramics are among the oldest known. Fashioned from low-fired Nile mud and decorated with ompressed dots and wavy lines, this pottery dispersed throughout the African continent and remained unchanged for thousands of years. The earliest evidence from Egyptian civilization shows strong affinity with Khartoum Mesolithic (c. 6000 B.C.). Later (c. 4000-3500 B.C.) Predynastic Upper Egyptian and Lower Nubian materials are strikingly similar. Human figurines, cosmetic palettes, and black-topped red pottery were common to both cultures.The A-Group 3100 B.C.-2800 B.C.A-Group, Lower Nubia's earliest civilization, appeared around 3100 B.C., immediately preceding Egypt's unification. Although finely painted ceramics imitating basketry and a spectacular mace head with a gold handle were excavated from A-Group graves, this civilization was dismissed as a chiefdom of nomadic cattle herders.
Qustul's royal burial ground was excavated by the University of chicago's expedition in the 1960s, and the large, rich graves of local kings were revealed. These contained Egyptian imports as well as local artifacts. Despite theories that Qustul's kingdom preceded the early Egyptian proto-states found at Nubt-Naqada and Nekhen-Hierakonpolis, all these states probably developed simultaneously, some with contacts with Syria Amuq Valley Mesopotamian civilization.
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Post by alexandrian on Mar 20, 2005 13:59:51 GMT -5
Topdog, few surveys have been done comparing Lower to Upper Egyptians, mainly because the concept of dividing them into completely distinct races is ludicrous. Ramses 2 looked nothing like that Negro you posted ghedi. And that Somali leader looks far more Caucasian than Negroid, he has straight hair, thin lips, and sharp nose.
What's the point of the cultural affinities between Nubia and Egypt? They both had pyramids? So what, the Chinese and Mayans had pyramids too. These Nubian pyramids aren't even similar to Egyptian pyramids, they are smaller and more inferior. YOu can cite random sources that say Nubian artifacts were similar to Egyptian ones and could have preceded them, but let's face it, we haven't found all the evidence that existed yet. We could just as easily find Egyptian pottery dating back to 6000 BC in Saudi Arabia two years from one, would that make the Egyptians Arabian? THe fact of the matter is that Egypt had constant control over a submissive Nubia. Egypt was the dominant factor in that relationship forever, with the only exception being 80 years of Taharqa rule in Egypt. Egypt's sole consistent black African trading partner was Nubia, on the other hand, Egypt had constant, consistent interaction with Pheonicians, Canaanites, Libyans, Sumerians, Greeks, Assyrians, MInoans etc.
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Post by mike2 on Mar 20, 2005 14:31:24 GMT -5
Ghedi, Nilotes and Bantus were never immune to Aethiopidization. It's not anything surprising that some of them look like Ethiopians or Somalis.
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ghedi
New Member
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Post by ghedi on Mar 20, 2005 18:17:49 GMT -5
Mike, I respect your opinion, but let's no peddle half truths. The so-called Aethiopidization is as much a figment as the "Negroidization"(if there's such a word) of Southern Europe. There is simply no evidence that shows that Aethiopids(if there's such a group) got as far as Central, South and West Africa en masse, sowing their wild oats in reckless abandon in the process. Let's not forget, that Africa is the cradle of humanity, and considering its genetic diversity, even the so-called caucasoid features originated in it. Thus it's certainly not out of order to expect to see a Bantu with "caucasoid" features(notwithstanding the effects of environmental variation and adaption) or an Ethiopian/Somali with "negroid" features....I hope you're paying attention, Alexandrian!
Alexandrian said: They both had pyramids? So what, the Chinese and Mayans had pyramids too. These Nubian pyramids aren't even similar to Egyptian pyramids, they are smaller and more inferior.
Umm....let me put it simply.....quantity, function and building technique. What did the Chinese use their pyramid(s) for? How many do they have? What did the Mayans use their pyramids for? How did they construct them? What materials did they use? Oh, and pyramid size is irrevelant to this discussion. Nonetheless, the Nubians had some large pyramids in Napata and Meroe....not as large as the Great pyramid, but still larger than many, if not most Egyptian pyramids. Moreover, quantity wise, the Nubians reigned supreme. Not to mention, practicality....many Egyptian pharoahs died before their pyramids were complete. Perhaps a modern day equivalent would be like comparing the Ukrainian "super jumbo" to a Boeing 747. Clearly, practicality concerns trounce size.
Alexandrian also said: YOu can cite random sources that say Nubian artifacts were similar to Egyptian ones and could have preceded them, but let's face it, we haven't found all the evidence that existed yet.....THe fact of the matter is that Egypt had constant control over a submissive Nubia. Egypt was the dominant factor in that relationship forever, with the only exception being 80 years of Taharqa rule in Egypt. Egypt's sole consistent black African trading partner was Nubia, on the other hand, Egypt had constant, consistent interaction with Pheonicians, Canaanites, Libyans, Sumerians, Greeks, Assyrians, MInoans etc.
Umm, your point being? True, the Egyptians ruled over the Lower Nubians, a few hundred years more than the Nubians ruled over the Egyptians. Yet, you're forgetting that Egyptians were subjugated by the Hyksos, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Turks and Arabs for more than a thousand years. Also, at one point, the Nubians under Taharqa were in control of an empire larger than the Egyptians ever had. Lastly, the term Nubian, is more or less, a generic term and was probably coined up by the Romans. Many modern archeologists think of Kushites, Meroites etc as separate civilisational entities. My point being that the Egyptians had numerous African trading partners....oh, add Punt to that list.
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Post by alexandrian on Mar 20, 2005 20:45:22 GMT -5
Kushites and Meroites were the same exact people who simply established civilizations with different capital cities. They were the only group of black Africans that traded with Egypt. Trade with Punt took thousands of years to develop, and even then, Punt's location is not known. Many scholars think it may be in Arabia, and it was most likely established by Arabs immigrating to the HOrn of Africa, just like Aksum. Either way, the Egyptians interacted with Libyans, Philistines, Minoans, Greeks, Assyrians, Babylonians, Hebrews, Anatolians, Arabians, etc. etc.
Egypt ruled over Nubia for thousands of years, Nubia only ruled Egypt for 80 years. There's a difference.
As for pyramids, Nubian pyramids were not very similar at all to Egyptian pyramids. They were smaller and narrower and used for different purposes. In all pyramid-building civs, pyramids were religious or tomb complexes. THe Mayans too worshipped a superior sun-god, the Mayans also built pyramids, the Mayans also had heiroglyphs, the Mayans even had a 360-day calendar with 5-days at the end for religous festivals, just like the egyptians! Does that mean they were the same people? Of course not!
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ghedi
New Member
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Post by ghedi on Mar 20, 2005 21:35:09 GMT -5
Alexandrian said Kushites and Meroites were the same exact people who simply established civilizations with different capital cities. They were the only group of black Africans that traded with Egypt. Trade with Punt took thousands of years to develop, and even then, Punt's location is not known. Many scholars think it may be in Arabia, and it was most likely established by Arabs immigrating to the HOrn of Africa, just like Aksum. Either way, the Egyptians interacted with Libyans, Philistines, Minoans, Greeks, Assyrians, Babylonians, Hebrews, Anatolians, Arabians, etc. etc.
Yeah, right! Dream on! Arabs had NOTHING to do with Aksum. As for Punt's location, the odds are in favor of it being in Africa. BTW, other African states that traded with Egypt are: Wawat, Irtet, Medjay, Setjiu and Yam. And as I noted before, images are worth a thousand words. I can assure that there are many more records(including pictorial reliefs) of trade between Egypt and these other African groups than the former and West Asian groups.
Alexandrian also said: Egypt ruled over Nubia for thousands of years, Nubia only ruled Egypt for 80 years. There's a difference.
Umm....I don't think so. See the links below(will invlove some elementary math) 1)http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=aa28 2)http://www.thenubian.net/chronology.php
Alexandrian said: As for pyramids, Nubian pyramids were not very similar at all to Egyptian pyramids. They were smaller and narrower and used for different purposes. In all pyramid-building civs, pyramids were religious or tomb complexes.
Nubian pyramids resemble Egyptian pyramids to a greater extent than other civ's pyramids(including the Mayans). Nonetheless, as I stressed before, Nubian pyramids were unique. Nubians used their pyramids as tombs, as did the Egyptians. I'm quite certain that Mayan pyramids were NOT tombs.
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Post by alexandrian on Mar 20, 2005 21:51:17 GMT -5
Egyptians ruled Nubia during the Middle (350 years) and New (500 years) kingdoms. 850 years of Egyptian rule far outweighs 80 years of Nubian rule. And that's according to your source. Furthermore, Aksum was a civilization founded by Arabs, it is a simple historical fact. www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/aksu/hd_aksu_1.htm "Ethiopia's rich and unique artistic heritage is the product of a series of transcontinental cultural exchanges whose beginnings can be traced back as far as the late first millennium B.C. At this time, South Arabian immigrants began to arrive in the Ethiopian highlands from across the Red Sea, bringing with them a belief in diverse gods, a system of writing, and a tradition of monumental stone building that would profoundly influence the region's architectural and religious traditions" PUnt was most likely a civilizations made up of those South Arabians, the same people who went on to find Aksum. I have never heard of any of those African cultures you cited. I don't think there is even evidence of any interaction between Egypt and those places, please provide sources. Also, it is common knowledge that Egypt interacted with Philistines, Libyans, Minoans, Greeks, Anatolians, Hittites, Assyrians, Hebrews, Phoenicians, Canaanites, Sumerians and Nabateans and Arabians, thats far more than any amount of "African" trading partners. As for the pyramids, those in Mayan areas still had religious purposes, and Chinese pyramids were used as tombs. Nubian pyramids were built during periods of Egyptian rule in Nubia, and even then, the Nubians built it differently. There are many similarities between Maya and Egypt, but as I said before, they're not related.
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Post by mike2 on Mar 20, 2005 22:00:46 GMT -5
BTW, other African states that traded with Egypt are: Wawat, Irtet, Medjay, Setjiu and Yam. Interesting, where were these states you list? I thought Medjay was the name of a people, not a place.
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ghedi
New Member
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Post by ghedi on Mar 20, 2005 22:22:10 GMT -5
Alexandrian: Egyptians ruled Nubia during the Middle (350 years) and New (500 years) kingdoms. 850 years of Egyptian rule far outweighs 80 years of Nubian rule. And that's according to your source.
Exactly....and that's been my view all along. "Hundreds of years", as opposed to your outragious "thousands of years" claim.
Alexandrian: Ethiopia's rich and unique artistic heritage is the product of a series of transcontinental cultural exchanges whose beginnings can be traced back as far as the late first millennium B.C.
Well, your source just says that Aksum was a synthesis of cultures(both foreign and local). I still maintain that Southern Arabian influence was minimal. Afterall, if they were the originators of Aksumite culture, where are their monuments in Arabia? Did they just cross the Red Sea and voila.....suddenly acquired a tradition of monumental stone building?
Alexandrian: PUnt was most likely a civilizations made up of those South Arabians, the same people who went on to find Aksum.
Evidence?
Alexandrian: I have never heard of any of those African cultures you cited. I don't think there is even evidence of any interaction between Egypt and those places, please provide sources. Also, it is common knowledge that Egypt interacted with Philistines, Libyans, Minoans, Greeks, Anatolians, Hittites, Assyrians, Hebrews, Phoenicians, Canaanites, Sumerians and Nabateans and Arabians, thats far more than any amount of "African" trading partners.
If you actually read the links I sent you, you wouldn't ask me about those African cultures. Further, I still maintain that the Egyptians had greater trade links with inner Africans based on their records.
Alexandrian: As for the pyramids, those in Mayan areas still had religious purposes, and Chinese pyramids were used as tombs. Nubian pyramids were built during periods of Egyptian rule in Nubia, and even then, the Nubians built it differently. There are many similarities between Maya and Egypt, but as I said before, they're not related.
Firstly, Nubian pyramids were NOT built during periods of Egyptian rule. We both know that people like Taharka were building pyramids long after the Egyptians stopped(and perhaps forgot) doing so. Even if there are some similarities between the Mayans and the Egyptians, the Nubians are a lot more similar to the latter on average.
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Post by alexandrian on Mar 20, 2005 22:23:09 GMT -5
Interesting, where were these states you list? I thought Medjay was the name of a people, not a place. Wawat was simply the Egyptian name for Lower Nubia (area in between Upper Egypt and Kush). THe other states were simply states in Nubia. What does this prove ghedi? You're only reaffirming the fact that the only black African peoples to consistently interact with ancient Egyptians were the Nubians.
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Post by alexandrian on Mar 20, 2005 22:27:10 GMT -5
Alexandrian: Egyptians ruled Nubia during the Middle (350 years) and New (500 years) kingdoms. 850 years of Egyptian rule far outweighs 80 years of Nubian rule. And that's according to your source. Exactly....and that's been my view all along. "Hundreds of years", as opposed to your outragious "thousands of years" claim. 850 years is still far greater than 80 years. Egyptian influence in Nubia was far greater than Nubian influence in Egypt. If you actually read the links I sent you, you wouldn't ask me about those African cultures. Further, I still maintain that the Egyptians had greater trade links with inner Africans based on their records. Based on what records!? Now you're just making stuff up. Firstly, Nubian pyramids were NOT built during periods of Egyptian rule. Many were. We both know that people like Taharka were building pyramids long after the Egyptians stopped(and perhaps forgot) doing so. Exactly, the Nubians built pyramids after the Egyptians did. After the Egyptians had taught them how to do it. You're only reaffirming my point that the Nubians learned pyramid-building from Egyptians.
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