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Post by topdog on Mar 13, 2005 3:33:14 GMT -5
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Post by amksa on Mar 15, 2005 7:30:49 GMT -5
the more accurate website about Berbers are those made by themselves : kabyle.com tamazgha.fr souss.com mondeberbere.com tawalt.com etc. because they deal with culture instead of race. |
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Post by shango on Mar 15, 2005 18:29:06 GMT -5
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Post by Igu on Mar 17, 2005 5:41:34 GMT -5
If by these info you try to say that modern touaregs are the same as their ancestors and that they have invented the tifinagh for the whites in the north, you are sadly mistaken. The tifinagh has been influenced by the punic alphabet and it's first use was done by white berbers, later on (very recently), some of these white berber migrated south and mixed/enslaved Black subsaharians... the only Berbers who have taken long time to be islamized are the touaregs and infact, it's them who kept most of the berber cultural beliefs and customs (tifinagh is one of them). |
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Post by Igu on Mar 17, 2005 5:42:57 GMT -5
I have put these numbers (wikipedia), But at that time I did not have enough data, I'm going to reduce the level of admixtures for the coastal berbers. |
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Post by Igu on Mar 17, 2005 5:44:01 GMT -5
@ Berter:
Are Berbers from Souss shleuhs?
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Post by amksa on Mar 17, 2005 6:28:45 GMT -5
@ Berter: Are Berbers from Souss shleuhs? yes. Souss Valley + High Atlas (Adrar n Dern in Berber language) + Anti Atlas (Adrar Wankis) = Chleuh/Ichelhiyen. It refers to the Tachelhiyt language spoke in the areas that i mentionned above. But the problem is that Arab Moroccans use the word "chlouh" as a pejorative term to designate all Berbers of Morocco, be they from the Middle Atlas (Afezaz), the Souss or the Riff. |
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Post by Igu on Mar 17, 2005 11:11:55 GMT -5
yes. Souss Valley + High Atlas (Adrar n Dern in Berber language) + Anti Atlas (Adrar Wankis) = Chleuh/Ichelhiyen. It refers to the Tachelhiyt language spoke in the areas that i mentionned above. But the problem is that Arab Moroccans use the word "chlouh" as a pejorative term to designate all Berbers of Morocco, be they from the Middle Atlas (Afezaz), the Souss or the Riff. Are the Chleuhs one homogenous group that speak the same dialect? or are they devided into three ethnics? |
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Post by topdog on Mar 17, 2005 12:17:22 GMT -5
If by these info you try to say that modern touaregs are the same as their ancestors and that they have invented the tifinagh for the whites in the north, you are sadly mistaken. Who has stated that? Quit trying to pick fights, his post had nothing to do with blacks and whites, why must you inject race into everything? Proof? Genetically speaking, Tuaregs are closely related to the Beja of the Red Sea Hills so are you saying Bejas are mixed with Berbers? Tuaregs are share a common cultural origin with the Negroid Toubou and Beja that spans back to the Holocene: Andrew B. Smith A prehistory of modern Saharan pastoralists ABSTRACT Using archaeological and ethnographic data, this paper suggests that the ancestors of many modern Saharan pastoral groups, e.g. Tuareg, Toubou, Beja, may have had connections during the mid- to late-Holocene. Deep-meaning, exemplified by rock art and funerary monuments in the past, and pre-Islamic religious beliefs in the present, offer clues to a possible common heritage. It is further suggested that prehistoric Saharan herders may have been cultural innovators, and ideas spread from the Sahara to the Nile Valley and the Maghreb.www.saharajournal.com/15/pages/abs_15.htmlSeems like ideas spread from the Sahara to the Maghreb, not vice versa, at least during the earliest periods. |
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Post by Igu on Mar 17, 2005 13:37:18 GMT -5
Who has stated that? Quit trying to pick fights, his post had nothing to do with blacks and whites, why must you inject race into everything? Proof? Genetically speaking, Tuaregs are closely related to the Beja of the Red Sea Hills so are you saying Bejas are mixed with Berbers? Tuaregs are share a common cultural origin with the Negroid Toubou and Beja that spans back to the Holocene: Andrew B. Smith A prehistory of modern Saharan pastoralists ABSTRACT Using archaeological and ethnographic data, this paper suggests that the ancestors of many modern Saharan pastoral groups, e.g. Tuareg, Toubou, Beja, may have had connections during the mid- to late-Holocene. Deep-meaning, exemplified by rock art and funerary monuments in the past, and pre-Islamic religious beliefs in the present, offer clues to a possible common heritage. It is further suggested that prehistoric Saharan herders may have been cultural innovators, and ideas spread from the Sahara to the Nile Valley and the Maghreb.www.saharajournal.com/15/pages/abs_15.htmlSeems like ideas spread from the Sahara to the Maghreb, not vice versa, at least during the earliest periods. Hey arab/Berber wannabe 2, don't try to play it Berber-Master, the bullshit you brought is not a study about touaregs, it just says that it is "probable" that BLA BLA BLA. Next time don't wast my time, find something you know about or just don't post. |
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Post by topdog on Mar 17, 2005 14:05:39 GMT -5
Hey arab/Berber wannabe 2, don't try to play it Berber-Master, the bullshit you brought is not a study about touaregs, it just says that it is "probable" that BLA BLA BLA. I never said I was Berber. Of course the study made no mention of race, it was reflective of culture and the spread of ideas. Incidentally, you have posted basically no evidence that "white Tuaregs" mixed with black Saharans. The Sahara and the Garamantes were a Neolithic civilization combining fishing and stock raising. They were Negroid peoples with a pastoral economy.www.csupomona.edu/~mibrahim/hst.329/NA.antiquity.html |
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Post by amksa on Mar 17, 2005 14:38:56 GMT -5
Are the Chleuhs one homogenous group that speak the same dialect? or are they devided into three ethnics? oui, la langue tachelhiyt est une des langues berbères la plus standardisée, elle est parlée dans le sud du maroc et a une aire d'extension très vaste en fait, pourtant même s'il existe des variantes régionales (Dadès, Anti-atlas, Haut-atlas, la vallée du Souss, etc.) cest une langue qui a réussi à s'homogénéiser du fait des films et au commerce entre régions, et aussi des cassettes des musiciens (rrays) qui chantent une langue qui puissent etre comprise par tous les chleuh du sud du maroc, etc... en fait le noeud de cette langue et le point de rencontre de toutes ces populations, cest la région souss-massa-draa. ethniquement, c'est assez varié, même si la population n'est pas vraiment différente du reste du maghreb : en fait la regle est toujours la même, Igu, comme tu le sais toi-même, plus tu vas vers l'extrême sud, plus tu rencontres des personnes métissées avec du sang noir, et plus tu vas vers les montagnes (haut-atlas et anti-atlas) et moins tu vois de mélange, les gens y sont comme qui dirait un peu plus refractaires au melange que ce soit avec les arabophones, noirs ou autre. je pense que quand tu parles des trois ethnies au maroc tu te réfères aux : chleuhs, rifains et imazighen du moyen-atlas... mais encore une fois je le répète le mot chlouh en arabe désigne tous les berbères, c'est pour ca que les gens font la confusion avec Chleuh qui n'est employé par les scientifiques (linguistes, anthropologues, etc) que pour désigner les berbères du sud du maroc et qui parlent Tachelhiyt... en vrai le mot, c'est Achelhiy/Ichelhiyen. le mot le plus répandu en réalité, cest Amazigh, et ça a l'avantage d'être clair au moins, et y a rien de péjoratif au moins !!! là d'où je viens dans le sud du maroc ça veut dire "homme blanc" mais bon je pense que c'est pour une raison sociale, dans d'autres régions ça veut dire seigneur ou dieu, etc, ça change selon la structure sociale de l'endroit quoi si j'ai bien compris, chez certains touaregs par exemple, il n'y a que les nobles, l'élite, qui a le droit de se nommer comme ça. si ça t'interesse j'ai une étude faite par un de tes compatriotes Kabyles, le célèbre Salem Chaker sur l'origine du mot Amazigh (format pdf) : [ftp]http://194.167.236.5/pub/enseignements/langues/afrique/berbere/pages_html/webdoc/amazigh.pdf[/ftp] et là tu as des documents en libre service (format pdf) : [ftp]http://194.167.236.5/pub/enseignements/langues/afrique/berbere/pages_html/doclibre.htm[/ftp] (sorry i will translate this next time!!!! not enough time) |
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Post by Igu on Mar 17, 2005 14:47:09 GMT -5
oui, la langue tachelhiyt est une des langues berbères la plus standardisée, elle est parlée dans le sud du maroc et a une aire d'extension très vaste en fait, pourtant même s'il existe des variantes régionales (Dadès, Anti-atlas, Haut-atlas, la vallée du Souss, etc.) cest une langue qui a réussi a s'homogénéiser du fait des films, des cassettes, du commerce en rédiond, etc... en fait le noeud de cette langue cest la région souss-massa-draa. ethniquement, c'est assez varié, même si la population n'est pas vraiment différentes du reste du maghreb : en fait la regle est toujours la même, Igu, comme tu le sais, plus tu vas vers le sud plus tu rencontres des personnes métissées avec du sang noirs, et plus tu vas vers les montagnes (haut-atlas et anti-atlas) et moins tu voisnde mélange. je pense que quand tu parles des trois ethnies au maroc tu te réfères aux : chleuhs, rifains et imazighen du moyen-atlas. -thanks for the answer, I do know the three ethnics (chleuhs, rifains & imazighen) of morocco but I was wondering about the variant of chleuh (haut-atlas & anti-atlas & souss). So, accoding to you, the most mixed are those of the Souss. I was expecting that answer, (I have seen pictures of shleuhs from different regions.) -ProBoards don't allow writing in another language than english. |
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Post by mike2 on Mar 17, 2005 14:58:51 GMT -5
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Post by topdog on Mar 17, 2005 15:11:34 GMT -5
What evidence is necessary. One only has to look at a Tuareg to know he or she has a multiracial heritage. The Caucasoid cast and Berber language of the Tuaregs render their Berber and Sudanid ancestry obvious. This is the most natural conclusion. This is as black as Tuaregs get. There's no way all of these people are pure Sudanids. Some are blacker than others, some are whiter than others, but they are still intermediate for the most part. I can post tons of black Tuaregs, it doesn't make a bit of a difference. my challenge to him(Igu) was to prove that 'white Tuaregs' moved south. There's no such thing as 'Sudanids' , the majority of Tuareg DNA is sub-Saharan in origin. The point I'm making is that in the case of the Tuaregs, there wasn't an imposition of white over black. |
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