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Post by Faelcind on Mar 5, 2005 22:37:55 GMT -5
There not identical but they are close, the forms of britannia are from latin with the possible exceptional of Pyrdain which is the welsh word which was written down after the change from old British to early welsh. But it comes clearly comes from celtic precursor. I have seen no evidence that Alba was borrowed from latin it was not a word the romans used to describe it and is attested as early as Eirean is for ireland.
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Post by Crimson Guard on Mar 6, 2005 4:15:47 GMT -5
I didnt say they where identical.If you noticed i used the word "Almost" before hand..please read carefully. The Roman's called Ireland Hiberia,which is the oldest name by which it was known to the world at large. It was the name adopted by the Ancient Order of Hibernians to illustrate the antiquity of their race.Its still in use by the Irish people today aswel. The name Ireland is a modern contruct. I already explained Alba previously.I can understand why you would like to see a Celtic origin for nationalistic/racial/ethnic reasons,but the evidence is slim for this and unsubstantiated.Its of Roman origin.
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Post by Faelcind on Mar 6, 2005 17:29:07 GMT -5
There is no evidence to indicate that any of those words were ultimately of Latin orgin either. I am not nationlist but I find the attribution of everthing to latin culture rather ridiculous. Ireland the norwegian version of Eirean or Eire the traditional irish name for ireland and goddess who appers in celtic myth. Eirean is not a celtic or latin in origin and Hiberia was almost certain a latinization of some older version of Eirean, just as Pretani though in latin form has not latin meaning, they romans didn't just give places random names the took them from people who lived their. Iberia was Iberia because a word like that was used probably related to the celtic Abhar river. Alba is the only place you have an argument because it has a reasonable latin derivation but their is no convincing reason to think it come from latin as opposed to similar celtic cognate.
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Post by mike2 on Mar 6, 2005 17:35:12 GMT -5
Iberia comes from the Ebro River. Don't know if "Ebro" is Celtic or Iberian in origin though.
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Post by Faelcind on Mar 6, 2005 17:46:56 GMT -5
Quite possibly the Ebro river comes from that celtic root, its just as likely the just come from the same root.
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Post by CooCooCachoo on Mar 6, 2005 21:46:04 GMT -5
For England true. ...Most Brits are majorly into Roman history, and see the Roman invasion as the true begining of England's ascension into modern history. And Italy is respected as an old world culture, rich in traditions and style, with out the snootiness of France, etc.
But in the U.S., I would have to say there is room for improvement.
You could say the U.S. likes Italian culture, as much as it likes the Sopranos. ...But that in itself shows how loaded the issue is.
Don't think I'm kissing guinea ass or nothin', but to me it's weird that the Oscar awarded in "the Aviator" went to the Aussie actress portraying the very Anglican Katherine Hepburn, while the long overdue Martin Scorsese, a longtime creative talent in the industry, gets passed by yet AGAIN. (The WHOLE friggin movie was his vision.) ...As well as Leonardo Dicaprio, who has many great films to his credit (Titanic not being one of them).
Italian culture is distinctly not Germanic, or Anglo-Saxon. There are noticible differences, beyond large arm movements while telling stories. And these differences have resulted in misunderstandings, and at times, even a cultural gap.
It's interesting to me that Los Vegas was started by Italian businessmen who were persecuted as criminals, only to have it become American Corporate mainstream decades later.
And Italians, at least on the East coast, retain a real sense of being working class, in a way that many Anglican-Americans have really lost.
In some ways, there will always be some differences, and Italians have maintained their cultural identity in America much more so then other White groups. (But who'd want to give up those wife-beater tee-shirts.)
So while America loves Italian American culture for it's differentness, and watches shows like the Sopranos, and Everybody Loves Raymond, these same differences sometimes cause strain as well as celebration.
Most often it's Irish/Italian, as the Catholic thing unites the two groups. Much less often English/Italian.
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Post by Crimson Guard on Mar 7, 2005 9:35:52 GMT -5
<<Hiberia was almost certain a latinization of some older version of Eirean>> No it wasnt,its completly Latin of origin. <<I am not nationlist but I find the attribution of everthing to latin culture rather ridiculous.>> Ridiculous cause its true?It was the Latin Culture which was the dominate culture of Europe for many centeries,many of its names,arts,roads,language,laws and way of life ect shaped the world we live in today.Its roots still run deep. Lets not forget Roman Law,which is not only the basis and foundation for today law system in the western world,but the British simply copied/imatated to turn into British law.And Napoleon simply extended Roman Law into the Napoleonic Code. Thats the fact of the matter whether you like it or not guy. <<they romans didn't just give places random names the took them from people who lived their. >> Of course they did, they where the geographers,historians and conquerors. Iberians werent celts,and they populated many of the lands the Celts later invaded and occupied.Celts where an originally Eastern migration and one of the last invaders into British isles. Even ireland has has had Roman Influence aswel. www.free-definition.com/Hibernia.htmlCooCooCachoo,good post lots of truthisms.
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Post by Human on Mar 7, 2005 9:44:51 GMT -5
western europe owes a lot to the civilizing legions of Rome.
Romans literally civilized Western Europe.
Writing (alphabet, which was originally developed by semitic lebanese/phoenician merchants), civil institutions, morality (both Greek and Jewish were transmitted by the christianized Romans; most of Christian world still has as its capital the Vatican, a religion extension of former Roman Empire) and intellectuality (from the Greeks).
on this respect, Roman (Latin) influence was far more important to England than both Celtic and Anglo Saxon influence.
read Julius Caesar to know more about primitive barbaric celtic tribes. and read Tacitus to have an overall impression on Germanic savages of that time.
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Post by captainusa1 on Mar 7, 2005 18:47:50 GMT -5
I do not understand your point of view, Jojo. Unfortunately, you are one of the many who have been misinformed and politically influenced by the Anglo-Saxon population of Britain. The WASPS like to claim that Britain is a solely Anglo-Saxon nation and they have no regard for the Romans that actually colonized the country they call home. To them, British history starts with the invasion of the barbaric Germanic tribes. The descendants of these beastly savages tend to intentionally forget and belittle the Roman influence in their country. Everytime they say the name of their nation, however, they must remember that they are saying a Roman word. Barbaric and beastly Germanic tribes? They had nothing on the cruel, sadistic Romans. At least, they didn't kill people for public entertainment. The Romans weren't exactly the ancient version of the Peace Corps, ya' know.
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Post by Faelcind on Mar 7, 2005 19:52:45 GMT -5
The romans didn't give random names they translated the names the local people had for the most part. Britain has many celtic places very few latin ones.
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Post by captainusa1 on Mar 7, 2005 23:09:39 GMT -5
The romans didn't give random names they translated the names the local people had for the most part. Britain has many celtic places very few latin ones. You don't understand. The Celtic and Germanic people were incapable of having civilizations without the help of the superior Meds. Sorry. My sarcasm quota has been filled for the day.
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Post by mike2 on Mar 7, 2005 23:35:22 GMT -5
I wish we knew more about the pre-Roman era civilizations of Europe. It seems the glory that was Greece overshadows these civilizations. When was the last time you read anything about Thrace or Dacia? They had a high material culture but were still considered barbarians by the Hellenes. I guess all it took to be a barbarian back then was to be non-Greek.
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Post by Crimson Guard on Mar 8, 2005 4:15:49 GMT -5
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Post by Cerdic on Mar 8, 2005 8:42:57 GMT -5
Picts is also a latin name, which means painted. Alba is Latin aswel,for one of the earliest names from Roman history as it was the name of a king of Rome called Alba and a city in italy is called Alba. Albus means -white-which is where the Romans created the word Albion from. Italic (of which Latin is a form) and Celtic were closely related language groups. Working out the ultimate origin of a word used by both peoples is very hard. Some cognate words mostly Brythonic Celtic/Latin: cunus/canis=dog, rix/rex=king, alba/albus=white, maglo/magnus=big etc etc. Scotland was originally known as Alban, this was used as a war cry, "Alban!" by Scots soldiers into the Late Middle Ages and by Highlanders even later.
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Post by Cerdic on Mar 8, 2005 9:16:32 GMT -5
Bannovallium - Horncastle on Hadrian's Wall from the Celtic banno- meaning horn. Londinium (London) from the Celtic god Lug or Lleu, Aquae Sulis (Bath) from a local Celtic deity, all the names ending in dun or dunum from the Celtic for fortress. The Romans adopted craft items and arms and armour wholesale from the Celts who had a metallurgical technology way ahead of the all the Mediterranean civilisations. These include: iron tyres for wheels, case-hardened steel processing, ring mail, enamelling of metalwork, iron (as opposed to bronze) helmets etc. The Roman soldier of the Late Republic and Principate was virtually kitted out with Celtic borrowings: the gladius hispaniensis adopted from the Celtiberians, the mail coat, the long shield (scutum), and the montefortino, coolus and imperial gallic and italic helmets. Even the embellishments on the kit and weapons were usually derived from Celtic enamelling skills.
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