Usr-Mat-Ra Meri-Amen Tomb Commentary

[imhotep06]

Let’s first deal with this Usr-Mat-Ra Meri-Amen (Ramesis III) tomb first. I can tell by your “friends” email, that he has not visited the tomb and he doesn’t know what he is talking about. The images I am about to present (once again) are not reproductions, but actual images from tomb. Also, it would be valuable for you to learn how to read Mdw Ntr. For a thorough commentary, once again, visit www.mochasuite.com/Stories/ashaa_details.asp?ID=58

This is taken from Manu Ampims article


“ACTUAL TOMB PHOTOGRAPHS
I first visited and photographed the "Table of Nations" scene in the Tomb of Ramses III in both 1994 and 1995, and the scene DOES still exist today. The scene is long and thus it is too difficult to photograph the entire scene at once, so it has to be photographed in sections. This difficulty in recording the entire scene with one photograph has allowed some Euro-American Egyptologists to mix up the images and take the entire scene out of context. They carefully present only two images at a time (instead of ALL FOUR images of each group) in order to never reveal the horizontal texts which runs across the scene and identifies each group.”<br>
Here are the photos and commentary

3Rmt.jpg
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This 1994 photograph from the Tomb of Ramses III shows three of the four black skinned Egyptians, who are next to the god Heru (Horus) on the far left of the scene. Only the right elbow and parts of Heru's legs are still visible in the tomb. Notice the drawing of the hawk in front of Heru and just behind the right hand of the Egyptian on the left. The Egyptians always portrayed themselves in a group of four, on the far left, and closest to Heru in every "Table of Nations" scene. MA

3_Nhsyw.jpg


Three black-skinned Nubians who are identified with the name Nhsyw or "Nubians." Notice the guinea-foul bird (G21) in front of the hand of the 1st image on the left. The twisted flax (V28) and folded cloth (S29) are in front of the middle figure but are less noticeable. Source: Manu Ampim, 1994

3_Rmt.jpg
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FIGURE 1: Three BLACK-SKINNED Egyptians who are identified with the name RmT (i.e. Kmtjw or "Egyptians"). Source: Manu Ampim, 1994

4Rmt.jpg
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This 1994 photograph from the Tomb of Ramses III shows 4 black skinned Egyptians. The texts in front of each figure clearly reads _RmT_ (i.e. "Kmtjw" or "Egyptians"). This photo of the "Table of Nations" scene provides IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE that the ancient Egyptians portrayed themselves as jet black and dressed identical to other black Africans to the south. Many Western scholars have deliberately misrepresented this scene by not showing ALL FOUR images along with the identifying text. MA

4_Rmt.jpg
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Four BLACK-SKINNED Egyptians. Source: Manu Ampim, 1994

Hornung_Distortion.jpg


These pieced together photos misrepresent the Ramses III "Table of Nations" scene in 3 ways: only three of the four groups are shown; only two people per group are shown instead of ALL FOUR representatives of the groups; and the order of the groups as shown in the actual tomb are mixed up. Instead of a A-B-C-D order these cut-&-paste images show the groups as D-A-B (C omitted), and group A is mis-labeled by Erik Hornung as "Nubians" (Valley of the Kings 1990), pp.148-149. MA

Lepsius_4Groups.jpg
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This color reproduction by Kurt Sethe-Richard Lepsius (1913) is an condensed reproduction of the original "Table of Nations" scene in the Ramses III tomb. Sethe/Lepsius simply condensed the text & the 4 images for each of the four groups to 1 representative for each group (i.e. the 16 images were reduced to 4 images). This must have been done because all 4 of the images for each group are identical, and thus they simply omitted the redundant images. Otherwise, this drawing is an EXACT copy. MA.

Rmt_Nhsyw.jpg
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Black-Skinned Egyptian (LT) and Nubian (RT) in Same Attire. Notice the guinea-foul bird (G21) in front of the Nubian image. For this same Egyptian image see 4_Rmt.jpg and Yurco_Distortion.gif. Both figures are black-skinned and dressed identically. Source: Manu Ampim, 1994

Seti_BurtonPhoto.jpg
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This photo by Harry Burton in 1921 is from the Tomb of Seti I and it shows that von Minutoli's drawing of this "Table of Nations" scene is flawed. Von Minutoli drew the scene backward, left out most of the images, and he omitted all of the accompanying texts. MA

Seti_Minutoli_Drawing.jpg
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This color drawing by von Minutoli in the 1820s is not an accurate depiction of the "Table of Nations" scene in the Tomb of Seti I. Minutoli made three errors: he drew the figures in the scene from right to left instead of from left to right as is shown in the actual tomb reliefs; he drew only one figure of the Egyptians, Aamu, and the Nubians; and he left out the entire text of this scene. MA

TMP15652.jpg
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Black-skinned Egyptian. (Same figure as the Egyptian image on the left in photo 3_Rmt.jpg. ) The Theban Mapping Project caption falsely states that this image is a "Nubian erroneously labeled as an Egyptian." Source: Theban Mapping Project (image #15652).

Yurco_Distortion.gif
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These pieced together photos misrepresent the Ramses III "Table of Nations" scene in 3 ways: only three of the four groups are shown; only two people per group are shown instead of ALL FOUR representatives of the groups; and the order of the groups as shown in the actual tomb are mixed up. Instead of a A-B-C-D order these cut-&-paste images show the groups as A-D-B (C is omitted), and Group A is mis-labeled by Frank Yurco as "Kushites" (Egypt in Africa, 1996), pp.109-111. MA

Many of the ancient Egyptian Reliefs bear the fact that they resemble West Africans. Here are some images:









Asar Imhotep
www.mochasuite.com

[KLI]

wow. you are a bonafide afrocentrist LOL

you have to keep in mind that the Nubians of Ancient Egypt are not the same Nubians today (North Sudan, South Egypt) They were nilotes like the Shilluk, Dinka and so on from the nile basin of central Africa. Nhsw is Egyptian for ''foreignor" so obviously they did not consider those Nubians as one of their own. secondly, those photos of west africans and ancient egyptian similarities look so straw man its funny, do you know that Ancient Egyptian women used to shave their heads and wear wigs? Finally even the black skinned Egyptians do look different from the Nubian depictions, because the nubians are shown with obvious congoid features which the egyptian lacks.
This all comes down with Afrocentrists trying to lay claim to the Cushitic presence in Egypt as a west African African American thing LOL

[Buddyryvall]

HA HA HA HA, oh my god, is that a joke or what.
imhotep06 man handle it, your ancestors had nothing to do with the ancient Egyptians .

imhotep06 said:

Many of the ancient Egyptian Reliefs bear the fact that they resemble West Africans

Anceint Egyptians did not resemble West African Sub-Saharan Negroes

LOL what a joke.

Here is a good example of what ancient Egyptians looked like - nefertiti.iwebland.com/portraiture/3d.htm

[alexandrian]

The pictures you show clearly differentiate the average Egyptian from the average Nubian. Especially this one: the actual tomb relief, look how different the Egyptian looks:

Compare the Egyptian on the far right to the Nubian in the middle. YOu show now actual reliefs just interpretations of them and lie explicity about who is Egyptian and who is Nubian. Also keep in mind there were Nubians in Egypt who weren't Egyptian, that black guy you show is about as representative of the Egyptian population as Thierry Henry is of the French population. If you want to see real egyptians, look at the pics i posted in the black pyramids thread.

[imhotep06]

Are you serious? Let's see how intelligent you are. Define Congoid features and give a quantifiable, scientific basis for your new feature.

And Nhsu is not a name meaning foreigner. Learn the language. The root of the word Nehesu is Neh which mean "to conquer". Which correlates to the Edfu Text that talks about their SOUTHERN origin being led by king Heru to colonize what was called after the first intermediate period, Ta-Merry. You can view some plates here www.sacred-texts.com/egy/leg/leg07.htm

And not all women shaved their heads. I know I don't have to post the overwhelming images to contridict that statement you just made up. Only royality did that.

And please, for once at least, if your going to be in opposition to my statements, counter the evidence. Please bring your linguistic data, if you know how the field of linguistics work. Provide your image data as well.

Asar Imhotep
www.mochasuite.com

Mujahid said:

wow. you are a bonafide afrocentrist LOL

you have to keep in mind that the Nubians of Ancient Egypt are not the same Nubians today (North Sudan, South Egypt) They were nilotes like the Shilluk, Dinka and so on from the nile basin of central Africa. Nhsw is Egyptian for ''foreignor" so obviously they did not consider those Nubians as one of their own. secondly, those photos of west africans and ancient egyptian similarities look so straw man its funny, do you know that Ancient Egyptian women used to shave their heads and wear wigs? Finally even the black skinned Egyptians do look different from the Nubian depictions, because the nubians are shown with obvious congoid features which the egyptian lacks.
This all comes down with Afrocentrists trying to lay claim to the Cushitic presence in Egypt as a west African African American thing LOL

[imhotep06]

CASE CLOSED
An examination of the actual tomb photographs (figs. 2-3) show that much of the debate about the Ramses III "Table of Nations" scene, has more to do with *ideology* than the actual tomb evidence. None of the Sethe/Lepsius detractors will EVER show *original photographs* of ALL FOUR images of the Egyptians from the Ramses III tomb itself, because their argument is not based on the objective photographic evidence, it is based on their modern racial positions.

I have seen the "Table of Nations" scene in several Valley of the Kings tombs (KV 8, KV 11, KV 15, KV 17, etc.) and they all have differences and variations. There is NO absolute fixed standard on how the four groups are portrayed, and any claims to the contrary are nonsense. The one thing that is consistent about these scenes is that the *order* does not change: the Egyptians are always shown as the *first group* on the far left next to the god Heru (Horus); then the Aamw second; the Nubians are always the third group from the left; and the Tjhnw are the fourth group from the left. Nothing else is consistent from tomb to tomb in how these groups are portrayed. The attire, headdress, and facial features of the four groups change from tomb to tomb. Beware of anyone who would have us to falsely believe that all tombs had the same "exact" images and thus "if you have seen one tomb you have seen them all."

The Ramses III "Table of Nations" scene is indeed rare, but to claim that it doesn't exist or that Sethe/Lepsius made errors is dishonest. There are several Euro-American writers and Egyptologists who use the distraction approach by focusing on images from other tombs (rather than the KV 11 images themselves), or they use the well known cut-&-paste technique to deliberately misrepresent the scene. However, there are literally countless people in the world who have personally viewed the KV 11 "Table of Nations" images, and I challenge anyone to publish *original photographs* of ALL FOUR Egyptians and Nubians from the Ramses III tomb, and still claim that the scene as reproduced by Sethe/Lepsius is an erroneous "pastiche."

With the evidence of photographs #2-3, which undeniably show the Egyptians as black skinned and dressed identical to the other black Africans, now Yurco and company will have to think of more creative ways to mislead the public. Maybe they will now make other unsubstantiated claims and state that the well-trained ancient Egyptian royal artists had a lapse in memory, forgot their "real" racial identity, and thus made a major mistake in the Ramses III tomb!

www.mochasuite.com/Stories/ashaa_details.asp?ID=58


And don't worry, I am about to get on that thread, because I can't believe you even fixed yourself to put those fraudelent rendetions up there. This is going to be interesting.

Asar Imhotep
www.mochasuite.com

Alexandrian said:

The pictures you show clearly differentiate the average Egyptian from the average Nubian. Especially this one: the actual tomb relief, look how different the Egyptian looks:

Compare the Egyptian on the far right to the Nubian in the middle. YOu show now actual reliefs just interpretations of them and lie explicity about who is Egyptian and who is Nubian. Also keep in mind there were Nubians in Egypt who weren't Egyptian, that black guy you show is about as representative of the Egyptian population as Thierry Henry is of the French population. If you want to see real egyptians, look at the pics i posted in the black pyramids thread.

[alexandrian]

What are you even talking about? This original tomb relief, which shows how Egyptians depicted themselves and others clearly differentiaties between the egyptian on the far right and the Nubian in the middle. In fact, the Egypt looks mighty similar in skin tone to the Asiatic on the far left.




And if "Neh" means to "conquer" wouldnn't Nehesu mean "conquered people" referring to the Nubians conquered by Egyptians. Furthermore, how do you explain that out of all my entire Egyptian Coptic Christian family not a single member, that I'm aware of, has Negroid characteristics? How do you explain that all my parent's Egyptian friends, Christian or Muslim, elite or nonelite, who come from places as far afield as Assiut, Sohag, Cairo, and Alexandria, have overwhelmingly Caucasian features?

[santana]

listen dude.. im egyptian.. and im telling you rite now... i am not black, myancestors werent black.... get OVER IT.

[IfTheLightTakesUs]

^ I second that, I am Egyptian too, I'm not black, and my ancestors weren't black. Get a life bro.

Hey, you know what? You're totally right, you hit it on the head, Egypt was a black african ebony nubian kingdom of dark berries with even better juice. We all agree that you can now claim Egypt as one of your race's achievements. That's your prize, and you deserved it, you uncovered the lies of the EVIL white man, good job!

PM me sometime my charcoal skinned African brother, we can talk about things that us Africans like to talk about. You know, like being black and stuff.

[KLI]

To the afrocentrist...when theres evidence of black presence in Ancient Egypt its this kind:



not this kind:

[santana]

you should take this post to an average egyptian in egypt and see what he ssays... you will get a totally different reaction.. me and the other egyptians here are being very nice..frankyl i find it insulting when ppl are talking about MY RACE and are trying to claim it as their own or twist it around... you dont see us doing that to u and saying ALL WESTERN AND EASTERN CULTURES ARE DESCENDANT OF TEH EGYPTIAN CULTURE AND RACE..

[imhotep06]

You are not "Egyptian" in no shape or form. Do you even know Nile Valley History? You are a product of thousands of years of foreign occupation. There is no way linguistically, genetically or culturally you can claim heritance to Ta-Merrian civilization. Egypt is not even the name of the place for God's sake and the "real" "Egyptians" wouldn't and have never called themselves such.

Brief Chronology

671-332 BCE - Assyrian, Persian, And Greek Invasion and Rule
30 BCE - Roman Invasion and rule
639 AD - Arab Invasion
868 AD - Turkish Invasion

You as a modern "Egyptian" are tainted with various ethnic groups who have occupied that territory since around 700 BCE. Just because you have been there a long time, doesn't mean you are Ta-Merrian.

I have shown above, using the Usr-Mat-Ra Meri-Amen Tomb, that the Egyptians didn't see themselves as any different than the Nehesu. No matter the rendention in other tombs, They (Kmtjw & Nhsw) are still African people, no matter the Phenotypic features.

I request once again, if you are going to make comments in opposition to the findings, provide evidence and not personal feelings. Feelings are good servants, but poor masters - Kemetic proverb


Asar Imhotep
www.mochasuite.com

santana said:

listen dude.. im egyptian.. and im telling you rite now... i am not black, myancestors werent black.... get OVER IT.

[santana]

ur totally disregarding the depiction of white egyptian on their walls and the lighter representations of hte egyptians.. secondly... have u seen my face.. i have a picture.. i look typical egyptian... and i did a DNA test and my genes are extremely close to ancient egyptians so dont tell me that i am not egyptian... secondly i have absolutely nothing against black ppl and i have several black friends but thsi si ridiculous.. you say whatever you wanna say but no egyptian will ever EVER say that their civilization was black because it simply isnt backed by any DNA findings..dont give me pictures , give me DNA EVIDENCE

[mike2]

Mujahid said:

To the afrocentrist...when theres evidence of black presence in Ancient Egypt its this kind:



not this kind:

Mujahid is exactly right. West Africans had absolutely nothing to do with Ancient Egypt. The only "pure" black race that could have influenced it were the Nilotes. And these Nilotes bonded with the Atlanto-Mediterranean Cushites (Hamitic cousins to the Egyptians) to form the Aethiopids, a very striking and beautiful race indeed.

Like Mujahid, I believe the Semitic element among the Ethiopians is easily spotted. It's the ancient Hamitic and Nilotic elements of the Ethiopians and Somalis that give them their distinctive look, though I would agree that genetics has proven that Ethiopians are more Congoid than Caucasoid (I believe the statistic was 60% Congoid and 40% Caucasoid but I can't quite remember).

[imhotep06]

My Assyrian, Persian, Arabic, turkish Brother, please come better than that.

The tomb relief you are using is from Men-mat-Ra Sa Ra Ptah-Meri-en-Seti (Seti I). Both The Kemite and Nehesu brother are African. I KEEP POSTING another TABLE OF NATIONS SCENE from the Valley of the Kings and you see the exact same thing. Just these renditions are dark. You would have to explain WHY the brother in this scene (rmt n Kmt)




LOOKS EXACTLY THE SAME AND IS WEARING THE EXACT SAME SEM PRIESTLY OUTFITS AS THE NHSW PRIESTS



The features here are no different. Everything you have posted goes against any modern anthropological and genetic evidence. Please provide your records and anything during the late kingdom period 700 onward or during the Hyksos invasion (Second intermediate period) doesn't count. I garauntee that nothing you can present will ever be as valuable as the Qustul finds at cemetary L showing the "African" "Black" origins of Ta-Merrian civilization. I have provided linguistic data also. And I can garauntee that you didn't read it. It seems like reading on this board is not valued.

Asar Imhotep
www.mochasuite.com

Alexandrian said:

What are you even talking about? This original tomb relief, which shows how Egyptians depicted themselves and others clearly differentiaties between the egyptian on the far right and the Nubian in the middle. In fact, the Egypt looks mighty similar in skin tone to the Asiatic on the far left.




And if "Neh" means to "conquer" wouldnn't Nehesu mean "conquered people" referring to the Nubians conquered by Egyptians. Furthermore, how do you explain that out of all my entire Egyptian Coptic Christian family not a single member, that I'm aware of, has Negroid characteristics? How do you explain that all my parent's Egyptian friends, Christian or Muslim, elite or nonelite, who come from places as far afield as Assiut, Sohag, Cairo, and Alexandria, have overwhelmingly Caucasian features?