Hallam
Junior Member
Posts: 94
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Post by Hallam on Feb 9, 2005 12:01:15 GMT -5
Umm, no actually its been proven that Asians have larger hips then whites who in turn have larger hips then blacks. Do you have a source? It might be true of Koreans but I doubt it for East Asians overall.
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Hallam
Junior Member
Posts: 94
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Post by Hallam on Feb 9, 2005 12:06:24 GMT -5
Doubt it. I still see whites dominating weight lifting events and other power series. If you look at the records books, the Chinese women already dominate the powerlifting events. As people in China actually start lifting weights, (although there is some cultural stigma attached against it in tghe past), I think the men will catch up. In 4 years, you will see what I am talking about and in other events such as track and field. As someone already pointed out in another thread, steroids and weight lifting facilities are readily availible to many Chinese in the major cities. But steroid abuse and body imagery and perseptions of the male phsyique are not anywhere near that of the US.
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Post by nockwasright on Feb 9, 2005 13:41:16 GMT -5
Human2: It has to do with the fact that only the highest bodyweight category can give an idea of who is the strongest weightlifter.
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Hallam
Junior Member
Posts: 94
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Post by Hallam on Feb 9, 2005 16:09:01 GMT -5
Speaking of the scientific method I think you would have to consider the proposion that androgens do not differ significantly between races as the null, I know the studies aren't there to reject the null at this point. My personal perception is that asians seem less masculine overal but I know my sample is biased. That's just your subjective opiion but I know of people who would clearly disagree. Your opinion is not worth anymore than theirs. You should know that in medical studies, in many cases, the evidence is not concrete. However, some good studies are better than none at all or subjective opinion. Taht's how science works. The totality of teh evivdence from all the studies and the one using over 300 Asians and 1000+ total subjects are very insightful. Combined, the evidence is very insightful. I am just saying that in cases like this, we should be sceptical. Relative evidence here suggests a trend. Don't be ridiculous. You are BSing again. See the Deemers study. I posted a quote from teh study. Do you know how they measure DHT? They use 5-alpha-reductase activity, the enzyme responsible for turning T into DHT. Guess what? There is no real differences in Chinese and caucasian men. Where is the evidence taht Chinese Asian men have less DHT than caucasian men when environemnt is controled for? Read the Demers study. The whole study is available online for free. Liek I said, you are the one taht needs ot read the studies. Besides that, DHT is primarily respnsible for primary sexual characteristics. It has not been established that it is "extremely important" in masculinization of muscles etc. The wool is still over your eyes. I had nothing to do with it.
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Post by Faelcind on Feb 10, 2005 1:04:35 GMT -5
Bioman I have nothing against asian nor do I think their all hopelessly unatheletic nerds, as martial artist Bruce lee is my hero and you have to respect what Asians have acheived in the martial arts. All I am saying is that I don't think Chinese olympic record is reliable source of information on Asian physical capabalities because of the horrendous reputation it has for doping, though that reputation appears to be changing. I am especially skeptical of events like Womens weight lifting were even the use of small amounts of testerone would have huge effects on performance.
Hallam Your just repeating yourself, I looked through the literature on PUBMED and Medline their is no consensu and no clear trend. Studies have shown differences in serum levels of various androgens and different levels of their receptors most of the studies are looking specifically at prostate cancer not at distinguishing how the those hormones effect the masculinazation of different races There no clear trend only your desire for one. The data is not there to support in strong contention. I have my opinion and I think I made it clear exactly how much it was worth(not a damn thing). The problem here is that you are trying to prove your own opinion with insufficient data. Here's a few articles you not allready linked too that show the variability of the findings in the field.
[ftp]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15181080[/ftp] Higher testerone produciton in whites compared to asians not significant.
[ftp]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1621259[/ftp] Testerone highest in blacks equivalent in whites, hispanics, asians and pacific islanders, small samples for the later.
[ftp]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1827450[/ftp] Serum testerone not variable but higher levels of DHT and androgen precursors in caucasions.
Oh and back to your contention asians don't have higher body fat.
[ftp]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14505987[/ftp]
[ftp]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12164465[/ftp]
[ftp]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14726171[/ftp]
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Post by slick on Feb 10, 2005 2:36:37 GMT -5
I read Kame's game, but I find the Africans being necromancers in intelligence thing to be really wrong and annoying. There are many intelligent people of African descent. I just resent the implications that Africans are dumb. Intelligence is not a racial thing. Granted, all races have certain tendencies based on culture and other things, but no race is outright dumb.
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Kame
Full Member
Posts: 122
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Post by Kame on Feb 10, 2005 3:01:34 GMT -5
Dude, ofocurse intelligence is not associated with race. That whole stat table was completely based off of stereotypes, because I thought it was kinda funny and would provoke an interesting discussion. Did'nt you read my little disclaimer? I myself am of African descent.
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Post by Anima Eternae on Feb 10, 2005 5:00:55 GMT -5
Bwahahaha.
Carry on.
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Hallam
Junior Member
Posts: 94
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Post by Hallam on Feb 10, 2005 10:54:42 GMT -5
Hallam Your just repeating yourself, I looked through the literature on PUBMED and Medline their is no consensu and no clear trend. You are being intractably ignorant as anyone can see. And yet you have yet to provide a SINGLE study to show for this? You are the one that made the stupid and racist assertion in which you haven't been able to prove. I have shown you that the AVAILABLE evidence does not support your case. There usually isn't any "strong contention" in medical studies. Do you think this is physics? And what is my opinion? My opinion is that teh relevent evdivence suggests that #1 racist notions exist that are not backed up by the evidence #2, that the evidence suggest either there is no difference genetically or that there might be one in the opposite direction. And what have you shown to demonstrate that taht is untrue? Why are you showing me this? To show that whites don't have higher testosterone than Asians? Isn't that my case? Do you agree with me now taht there is no evidence that Asians have less T and all the good studies show that exept for a major one by UCLA taht showed taht Asian Americans have higher level T? That is just my point. The trend shows taht we can make some conclusions but they are not as conclusive as well established physical laws for example but that is always the case here isn't it? Did you see who made this study? That was Demers! This was the first of his studies. Read the second one in which he made reference to this first one and showed why it was flawed. Like I said, it MAY be the case taht Chinese have less DHT than whites living in China but Chinese living in the US likely, don't. This was Demers' conclusion. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12627175Average BF% of healthy Beijing Chinese is 12.4% as compared to 19.2% for healthy caucasians in the US. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1994613www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11445659^Here, only a difference could be found in Asian American women as compared to caucasian American women. No differences were found in men of Asian and caucasian ethnicities. Can we at least agree that the evidence is contradictory? Or perhaps N Asians like those from Beijing or Japan have lower body fat than whites (in the USA) while Singaporean and Hong Kong Chinese have higher body fat than Dutch? Please, you aree just embarrassing youself now as everyone can see.
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Post by Faelcind on Feb 10, 2005 15:07:28 GMT -5
You are the one that made the stupid and racist assertion in which you haven't been able to prove. There you have the problem with this whole argument were did I make a racist assertion, I offered an opinion and said the data was inconclusive you are the one with some need to prove your position. All I have done is shown that the data is not conclusive, which you would see yourself if you didn't have tunnel vision. Let me repeat this and be clear, I am not going to try to prove to that asians have lower testerone or androgen expression then whites, I never set out to to prove that just to offer evidence that the data was inconclusive. So stop battling a straw man. Your entitled to your opinion and its supported by the evidence, but don't act like you have the data to disprove the alternative.
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Post by nockwasright on Feb 11, 2005 11:51:40 GMT -5
Human2: this just in: nooo bodyweight category are meaningless to the point we are arguing, you are right. And the fact that Chinese athletes disappear after the 69 kg category and that they are chosen among more than a billion persons should never get in your way when you affirm that they are the strongest, bulkiest and biggest people on hearth.
Olympics: Results Medal Results | Daily Results 56-62kg - Men • Zhiyong Shi CHN
• Maosheng Le CHN
• Israel Jose Rubio VEN
62-69kg - Men • Guozheng Zhang CHN
• Bae Young Lee KOR
• Nikolay Pechalov CRO
69-77kg - Men • Taner Sagir TUR
• Sergey Filimonov KAZ
• Oleg Perepetchenov RUS
77-85kg - Men • George Asanidze GEO
• Andrei Rybakou BLR
• Pyrros Dimas GRE
85-94kg - Men • Milen Dobrev BUL
• Khadjimourad Akkaev RUS
• Eduard Tjukin RUS
94-105kg - Men • Dmitry Berestov RUS
• Igor Razoronov UKR
• Gleb Pisarevskiy RUS
Over 105kg - Men • Hossein Reza Zadeh IRI
• Viktors Scerbatihs LAT
• Velichko Cholakov BUL
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Post by Adrian on Feb 11, 2005 19:03:59 GMT -5
Interesting Kame, but you i belive you are wrong. First you put there three pictures reprezenting an idealized african (zulu?) warrior (be sure that the real zulu warriors didn't looked like that ), an original (not sure) picture of an japaneze samurai and an strange picture with a buffon (he represent a european warrior?) if you intended to make example of an european "warrior" you have a very large selection of original representations of great soldiers who at that time dominated the world like greek hoplites, roman legionares, vikings, medieval knights and so on for all of those you can find original representations not some bodybuilder dressed like a christmass tree.
Now, africans clearly are very gifted physicaly, i don't think that they recive an inteligence penalty, this is crap, i belive they should have a bonus to constitution and dexterity, if you must penalize them, maibe to wisdom it could be.
"They make shrewd diplomats and highly charismatic leaders incuring a +1 bonus to charisma"
Don't think so, what diplomats are you talkin about? Highly charismatic leaders? The most famous i know are Idi Amin and Papa Doc Duvalier were those charismatic?
"they are excellent as soldiers, generals, priests, poets, preachers, musicians"
Generals? What are you talking about? The only generals that made an impact in world history were Europeans ii didn't forget Hannibal but he was not an black african.
Poets? How many african poets made an impact on world literature?
If you mention that blacks excel as generals, soldiers, musicians, poets that means that they are better that europeans and asians and that is not true at all. Especially in music where you think that blacks are better that whites, i don't belive that in 200 years somebody will listen to P Diddy or Tupac but after 200 years Mozart and Beethoven are still the best composers, the same for the 20th century the greatest impact was made by Beatles and Elvis whose songs will be listened a long time from now on.
" Whites, The most all-around race ,skilled in various many disciplines, they can choose any class and advance to any level. However because of their cosmopolitian nature they are subject to an equal number of penalties as bonuses. They gain no particular abilities because they do not specialize in anything. Their ingenuity is a is what propels them however, they gain a +5 bonus when using ranged or mechanical weapons, making excellent marksmen, but are good as any class.
Whites don't specialize in anything? You seems like a smart guy, read some history and you will see not only that the whites are the specialist of everything but in fact for a very long time they where the only one that counted in almost all the disciplines.
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Kame
Full Member
Posts: 122
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Post by Kame on Feb 11, 2005 19:53:36 GMT -5
;D ;D I know, it was hilarious! i got it from a costume site LOL. Yeah I'll change it to a greek hoplite or something. Yeah, I was debating whether I should either penalize intelligence or wisdom, just to make things even. I figured if Africans were to make good priests or preachers, unfortunately I'd have to take it out on intelligence. However they regain their intelligence penalty that they lost if they become a profession dealing with the dead such as necromancers. Keep in mind this whole table is based completely on stereotypes. Maybe I'll change intelligence back to normal and say you regain your -1 wisdom penalty if you become a priest or preacher. Well you have ,jesse jackson, martin luther king, kwame nkrumah, muhammed ali, al sharpton etc etc.. the list really goes on. People generally recognize black people as having a certain confidence and charismatic flair about themselves. Remember, this is based upon stereotypes. Those two examples you listed were just good ol' fashioned kleptocrats. But even kleptocrats can have flair! ;D Amiri baraka and Maya angelou? Whether not it is "proper" or not is irrelevant. No it is not shakepeare or anything like that, but black oral tradition stretches back hundreds of years in all parts of africa. And they created rap, which is basically petry with beats and music. You forget that rock'n roll is a "black" style of music that elvis and the beatles both borrowed from. They are 1/10 of the pop. but seem to produce alot of good music. Miles davis, Stevie Wonder (eternally sampled), Marvin Gaye, Chuck Berry, Louie Armstrong, Ray charles,Bob marley, etc.. the list goes on for while. And tupac's music is considered an art form in it's own right by many. They even dedicated an art center in his name. He's not going anywhere. If whites specialized in everything so much for balance eh? The purpose of doing that was balance above all. If euro's specialized in everything they'd be gods. And thats a whole 'nother table. ;D
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Post by Adrian on Feb 11, 2005 21:02:30 GMT -5
When you're right you're right....
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Post by Adrian on Feb 11, 2005 22:05:22 GMT -5
I've seen your changed some things -2 penalty to wisdom to blacks is too much, i belive.You forgot also constitution it is in D&D, i belive that blacks are clearly superior there. Dexterity is also something native to blacks i belive. Also it can be some bonus to strength but that is more something that everybody gain during life and not from birth. But then again that also could be the case of wisdom. I see that you changed also the pictures, i liked more the picture with the samurai, that new picture of an asian clearly is a ferocious warrior and while the hoplite picture is an improvement i expected to see a real ancient hoplite representation, i did a search with google image and found some nice photos of ancient hoplite statues. BTW Xzibit rulez. www.livius.org/a/1/greece/hoplite.jpg
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