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Post by Faelcind on Feb 7, 2005 20:54:21 GMT -5
Do I beleive the chinese can sports programn can surrpass the US clearly you do but only in the way you perfer. The fact is the chinese centralized sports program is very similar to those of russia and east germany that were proven to have used systematic doping, all the evidence points to the chinese practicing the same polices. Are american atheletes doped to, absolutely, but they don't have entire goverment behind them.
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Hallam
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Post by Hallam on Feb 7, 2005 21:13:32 GMT -5
Do I beleive the chinese can sports programn can surrpass the US clearly you do but only in the way you perfer. The fact is the chinese centralized sports program is very similar to those of russia and east germany that were proven to have used systematic doping, all the evidence points to the chinese practicing the same polices. Are american atheletes doped to, absolutely, but they don't have entire goverment behind them. America doesn't need to have an "entire government" behind them. It's called capitalism and coporate competition. Balco didn't need any government backing. It was successful because it was allowed to compete with other companies and chemists doing the same. Like I said, it is likely that most of the athletes in the top echelon of performance are on drugs today. The best China can do is equal that and they are far from equalling that just from a fact of resources.
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Post by Faelcind on Feb 7, 2005 21:20:36 GMT -5
The Chinese goverment has enourmous economic power despite the poverty of much of its citizens, there is no reason to beleive they would be behind in doping technology that certainly wasn't true of east germany and the soviet union which were also poverty stricken countries. Capatalism is great for something its is not the best way to devolop a comprehensive olympic devolpment system look at the success of Cuba despite is tiny size and lack of wealth. China is way ahead of the game because its all governed by the country not individuals ego andn ot opposed by the goverment.
As for your previous claim that china has never had an athelete test postive at the olympics read this.
[ftp]http://www.expressindia.com/ie/daily/20000907/isp07028.html[/ftp]
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Post by Faelcind on Feb 7, 2005 21:45:56 GMT -5
I will give you this Hallam the chinese do seem to be trying to clean up their program(notice that their running and swimming times have dropped drastically) and I don't think that all their success is based on steroids most of their competition was probably on performance enhancing drugs too though if it is true that asians have lower levels of testerone then roids would help them more. I like your boy Xiang to he is very cool to watch and doesn't look like he is roided out to me(unlike say Shawn Crawford).
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Hallam
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Post by Hallam on Feb 7, 2005 22:00:31 GMT -5
The Chinese goverment has enourmous economic power despite the poverty of much of its citizens, there is no reason to beleive they would be behind in doping technology that certainly wasn't true of east germany and the soviet union which were also poverty stricken countries. If I remember correctly, the GDP per capita of the USSR in the 60s, 70s and early 80s was about 6-12 times that of China so they weren't as poor as many people think. They had the resources to develop doping technologies to compete with anyone even though many of their citizens were very poor. Actually, if you want an example of a small country that did great, it would be Australia, a completely capitalist country. I think individual egos matter a lot in sports performance. I never claimed this. You're right, but so has the US's for the most part. It could be that the authorities are catching up. Like I already shown, this is not only false, but is possibly the opposite of the case.
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Post by Faelcind on Feb 7, 2005 22:13:23 GMT -5
The US has had many athletes caught and have admitted to using steroids in the past olympics. The Chinese, none. You never claimed that, come on? IIRC Australia has done better then Cuba in the last two olympics but historical has not been signficantly better despite twice the population. You have not demonstrated your argument about testerone in asians to mine or any one elses satisifaction as far as I can recall.
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Hallam
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Post by Hallam on Feb 7, 2005 22:38:53 GMT -5
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Post by Faelcind on Feb 7, 2005 23:36:18 GMT -5
Nope. When I said "in the past Olympics" I meant the previous 2004 Olympics. Don't be ridiculous you mispoke just admit it. I read your links before, and all the indicate is that their might not be difference, the one study finding higher levels in Asian americans was limited to men over sixty which creates a correlationary problem with the asian tendency towards longer life spans. The truth is that such studies have been incoclusive as of the moment and the relationship between androgen levels, androgen receptors, and androgen synthesizing or desynthesizing enzymes is quite complicated and its difficult to isolate any one parts effect on phenotypic experession. However the phenotypical evidence indicates that asians have less androgen experssion, for example the smaller size of the prostate, shorter heights, higher body fat content, less hirsutism, and lower risk of prostate cancer. Here is a study finding a 20 percent difference in DHT and 50 percent weight difference in central prostate size. [ftp]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10670524[/ftp] Here is another one claiming asians have smaller testes lower sperm production. Of medline. Title Ethnic differences in testicular structure and spermatogenic potential may predispose testes of Asian men to a heightened sensitivity to steroidal contraceptives. Author Johnson, L; Barnard, JJ; Rodriguez, L; Smith, EC; Swerdloff, RS; Wang, XH; Wang, C "It is postulated that smaller testes, coupled with the reduced number and function of Sertoli cells and reduced daily sperm production, contribute to an inherently lower spermatogenic potential in Asian men, which predisposes them to a heightened negative spermatogenic response to steroidal contraceptives. [Population Information Program (Johns Hopkins School of Health)]" And another one Corelating higher asian visceral fat levels to lower testerone Database MEDLINE Title Visceral fat accumulation determines postprandial lipemic response, lipid peroxidation, DNA damage, and endothelial dysfunction in nonobese Korean men. Author Jang, Y; Kim, OY; Ryu, HJ; Kim, JY; Song, SH; Ordovas, JM; Lee, JH Because most Asians at risk have normal body mass index (BMI) according to Western standards, we studied healthy nonobese Korean males (n = 102; age: 36.5 +/- 0.8 years, BMI: 23.8 +/- 0.2 kg/m2)..... Conversely, HVFA was associated with lower testosterone, insulin-like growth factor-1, and brachial artery flow-mediated dilation (P < 0.001). In conclusion, our data indicate that visceral fat accumulation, even in nonobese men, is a major factor contributing to increased CVD risk. I could go on but its not an argument I am that interested in.
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Post by nockwasright on Feb 8, 2005 3:42:49 GMT -5
Hallam, you seem to forget the fact that China has more than a billion citizen, much more than EU and USA put togheter, plus is a totalitarian state where government uses its citizens as slaves to reach its propagandistic goals. This considered their olympic results are quite meagre. In the Western World fat women go on a diet, they don't assume steroids to become weightlifters. Your gdp correlation doesn't seem to work for Kenyans, then. Do you really think the Chinese are on average as strong and powerful as, say, the Slovenian or Maori? Do you live in the same world we all live?
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Hallam
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Post by Hallam on Feb 8, 2005 11:55:38 GMT -5
th Don't be ridiculous you mispoke just admit it. I just didn't make it more clear to you. It is a common mistake involving morphological ambiguity. See Plurale tantum. I wasn't aware of it at first. A single Olympics can be called "the olympics " or alternatively, "olympics" can be used as the plural for many olympic games. You can do better than that. No, they said that either there is no genetic difference or that Chinese and japanese American men have signifiucantly higher levels of bio-available T. I don't need to show you the studies again. Too complicated for who? So now they are "inconclusive yeh? The and BS "evidence" that you never gave are conclusive? Do you know hwat and how science works? My studies are legitimate. We have to go with teh available evidence. And guess who's side they support? Tell me, have you ever studied genetics, biochemistry, endocrinology etc etc? I have. I came close to becoming a MD. ;D First, you are showing your complete ignorance in endocrinology. Height is a function of many factors such as good nutrition, and genes. The hormones responsible for height are Insulin like growth factor 2 and growth hormone. Testosterone is actually a bone growth inhibitor. This is why people who have took steroids in their growing years are shorter, not taller than if they had never took them. And beside, some of you who claim that Blacks have higher levels of T contridict yourselves since west Africans tend to be equal or shorter in Africa than Caucasians in the US or other western countries. They are also vastly less hirsute. African men in west Africa also have less risk of prostate cancer than caucasian men in teh US. The etyology of Prostate is much more complicated than that. You should have also read the study you supplied (from me). There is no difference in overall prostate sze or testicular size in native Chinese men and Australian men. Read the the abstract. It is only one paragraph long. This was on native Chinese men. As the Demers study showed, even DHT (the hormone for prostate growth) is not different in American Chinese men than in American caucasian men. It is only differnt in native Chines men perfectly in accordance with the australian study. Again, I don't have to show you the study again. You can live in you racist ignorance if youy which but that is your choice. You need to read that study. No where does it say that Asians have higher body fat or lower T than Caucasians. I ahve seen several studies taht say that Chines emen and Japnese men (even in the US) have lower body fat than caucasian men. Average 20 year old white males in the US have about 15% while the Japanese men of teh same age had only 13.5%. Young Beijing Chinese men had only 12.5%. Also, it's funny that you brought up a study saying that BMI in Asians are less than caucasians as BMI (AKA Quetlet's index)is negatively correlated with T. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8672990I can give you many other studies saying the same thing. No, you probably wouldn't be. You still haven't answered the Demers, digit ratios, and the study showing Chinese and Japanese men having much higher T than whites. Don't try to pull off BS posts by showing studies that have nothing to do with the matter and that do not supoort your case. Like I said, you are talking to someone that actually have done the work in these areas. Just face it, you have no case.
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Post by Faelcind on Feb 9, 2005 1:03:43 GMT -5
th You can live in you racist ignorance if youy which but that is your choice. See there is your problem right there Hallam you constantly see the shadow orfracism were it doesn't exist and feel the need to prove yourself and your race all the time. Let me be clear I am not arguing that Asians clearly have lower androgen expression. Nor would I consider that a sign of inferiority. Speaking of the scientific method I think you would have to consider the proposion that androgens do not differ significantly between races as the null, I know the studies aren't there to reject the null at this point. My personal perception is that asians seem less masculine overal but I know my sample is biased. The point I am trying to make is that you do not have strong data to support your conclusions either. I read your links the first time you posted them and again now. You have one study that bears directly on what you are saying and it found no significant differences. The rest of the studies you cite are only indirectly related to the subject and I find them lacking. You of course only represent the the side of the dialogue you perfer, if you are so well versed in endcrinology you would notice that the studies you cite indicate DHT is lowest among Asians and the DHT is also extremely important in masculinization. You also ignore the study I cited on lower testes size, and sperm genesis. I am bio anth major in my senior year your not going to pull the whool over my eyes with a few pubmed citations. I would be interested in your knowledge of this subject if you weren't so clearly biased, I don't really care which ethnic groups are the most androgen saturated, but I do find it interesting.
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Post by BioMan on Feb 9, 2005 5:41:36 GMT -5
Umm, no actually its been proven that Asians have larger hips then whites who in turn have larger hips then blacks. Hence African hips are much better for running. The reason behind this is because Asian babies at birth have larger heads then the other races.
And Faelcind do you have some problem admitting that Asians are at the level whites are at in physical ability? Everytime an Asian is good at a sport, must you credit it as steroid abuse? Look at history now and tell me who abuses steroids the most often past, present and the future. Well if it isn’t the white and black races.
What about other asian countries that win gold in sports involving power. I mean we cant deny that Asians arnt good at agility and accuracy sports since they dominate those(archery, table tennis, diving whatever). Yet even in power sports it seems that Asians do well, maybe whites are winning more medals today but if you look at the trends Asians are doing better and better each passing year and will atleast rival them. Although im betting Asians will surpass whites in various power sports. Of course whites will still dominate in some sports. Oh yeah and a serious question I have, when has Slovenia or the Maori done something impressive in the power category?
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Post by Anima Eternae on Feb 9, 2005 10:32:25 GMT -5
Doubt it. I still see whites dominating weight lifting events and other power series. They're just your typical liberal and whiny "anti-racist". Let it pass.
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Post by nockwasright on Feb 9, 2005 10:37:13 GMT -5
BioMan: I don't have statistics that can prove Slovenian or Maori achievements in sports involving strenght (even if the All Blacks of New Zealand, a tiny nation dominating a popular sport, come to mind).
I quoted Slovenian and Maori becouse to anybody who had the chance to see some of them they are obviously big and bulky, while, on the other hand, everywhere in the far east people look thin and slim. Also in any cosmopolitan city as, say, New York or London, you can see that Asians are much smaller (not only shorter, but thinner) than people of North or Eastern European descent, or of West African descent. That's just obvious.
Compare height and wheigt of the Japanese soccer team to the Bulgarian soccer team, if you need hard data to confirm something that is just plain evident.
Actually nor you neither anybody else has the means to prove that any group is stronger than the other, as to really prove it we should try all human population in weightlifitng. So if you want to close your eyes about it, you are welcome: there's no evidence a random man from Nigeria could likely beat up a random man from Corea. But likely he could.
If you think olympics results are telling, take a look at the table of golds of last olympic games, and compare to the population:
1 USA 35 2 China 32 3 Russia 27 4 Australia 17 5 Japan 16 6 Germany 14 7 France 11 8 Italy 10 9 South Corea 9 10 Great Britain 9 11 Cuba 9 12 Ukraine 9 13 Hungary 8 14 Romania 8 15 Greece 6 16 Norway 5 17 The Netherlands 4 18 Brazil 4 19 Sweden 4 20 Spain 3 21 Canada 3 22 Turkey 3 23 Poland 3 24 New Zealand 3 25 Thailandia 3 26 Bielorussia 2 27 Austria 2 28 Ethiopia 2 etc.
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Post by nockwasright on Feb 9, 2005 11:53:01 GMT -5
Human2: do you realise weightlifting is divided in bodyweight categories? If you had pygmies at the olympics and a weightlifting bodyweight category of 45 kg, they would result the strongest population on heart.
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