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Post by Abubakari on Jan 14, 2005 13:08:33 GMT -5
Africultura: The Rienzo study does indeed state that that Egyptians are closer to Sardinians than to SSA's. I quote from the study: "Genetic distances based on mtDNA sequences (Table 2), along with other results from nuclear markers , suggest that the divergence between Africa and the other two populations is larger than the divergence between Sardinia and Egypt." Also, see Table 2. Thats with regard to OOA, its does NOT say Sardinians and AEs are closely related. Pacific Islanders and Sardinians are closer together than to sub-Saharans. basically that study says nothing to debunk any relationship between AEs and black Africans; ots even goes on to say that AEs result from a mixture of SSAs and Caucasoids.
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Post by mhagneto on Jan 14, 2005 15:08:45 GMT -5
In population genetics, "closely related" is a relative term; the study does not address "relatedness" by any abstract standard. It merely states, contra your previous comment, that Egyptians are more closely related to Sardinians than to "black" Africans. You say "that study says nothing to debunk any relationship between AE's and black Africans." Where does that come from? Of course, no group of HS lacks "any" relationship with any other group. What matters is the relative degree of relatedness. I was pointing out that the study contradicted the statement you made earlier.
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Post by Melnorme on Jan 14, 2005 16:15:14 GMT -5
Good to see you here, mhagneto.
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Post by mhagneto on Jan 14, 2005 16:24:06 GMT -5
Thanks, Melnorme. I've been very busy, so it's hard for me to keep up. I hope to join the dialogue more often in the future. I've always respected your perspectives on these issues.
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Post by alexandrian on Jan 14, 2005 16:33:50 GMT -5
Seriously now- Afrocentrists (aFrican-American ones in particular) need to stop stealing ancient Egyptian heritage from the Egyptians to cure their inherent low self-esteem. There is not a single peer-reviewed anthropological survey that has shown Egyptians, modern or ancient, are closer to SSAs than Southern Meds. Obviously, the closest group of people they are close to are Middle Easterners or other North AFricans. By the way, in Hosch's study, Libyans and Egyptians were closer to Europe, genetically, than NW Africans.
If you take an average Egyptian, a Palestinian, and a Saudi and lined them up, you couldn't tell the difference. As having been to egypt nearly a dozen times, I can attest that most Egyptians fit the typical Middle Eastern stereotype, while those in the North often look strikingly similar to Greeks, Turks, or Lebanese, especially if they work in offices.
Joanne Fletcher was excavating a site by the Valley of the Kings and found most ancient mummies to have caucasoid hair- as opposed to a minority with negroid hair. That said, I don't think Africultura is an afrocentrist. At least he has the sense not to claim Egyptians as negroid. Certain other afrocentrists are sick fanatics. They claim that the AE's were pure negroes and sometimes, that modern Egyptians are negroes as well (Conventional Wisdom states otherwise). In the most extreme of cases, AFrocentrists believe that the AEs fled to Nigeria and that modern Egyptians are the descendants of Greco-Phoenician-Syro-Arabian settlers. What Bullshit.
Afrocentrism is a lame attempt by losers with low self-esteem. Oftentimes, AFrican-americans look at black african history and see nothing even remotely as impressive as the Egyptians or Sumerians or Greeks or Indians. To make up for it, they concoct wild theories trying to prove that the Egyptians, Jesus, Dravidians, Carthaginians, and Moors were somehow Negroid. Disgusting. Until African-Americans stop blaming the invisible white man and change their society from within, they will forever be a minority that is the definiton of urban poor. Likewise, all of AFrican's problem rest not with colonialism, but rather poor leadership and, oftentimes, laziness.
Egypt is by no means African. It is geographically in the Middle East. It is culturally in the Middle East. It is racially in the MIddle East.
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Post by Abubakari on Jan 14, 2005 18:13:42 GMT -5
Seriously now- Afrocentrists (aFrican-American ones in particular) need to stop stealing ancient Egyptian heritage from the Egyptians to cure their inherent low self-esteem. There is not a single peer-reviewed anthropological survey that has shown Egyptians, modern or ancient, are closer to SSAs than Southern Meds. Obviously, the closest group of people they are close to are Middle Easterners or other North AFricans. By the way, in Hosch's study, Libyans and Egyptians were closer to Europe, genetically, than NW Africans. Nobody is stealing Egypt's heritage so don't make lame claims of people stealing anything. There isn't a single peer-reviewed source that says ancient Egyptians are totally unrelated to sub-Saharans, They do form a cluster maternally with East Africans if West Asian ancestry isn't included So a relationship does exist Take the average Upper egyptian and he looks like none of those. If I took Terrell Owens(American) Shabba Ranks(Jamaican) and Obasanjo(Nigerian) you could wouldn't know the former two are NOT Africans, but would that make Terrell Owens the typical type for ALL Americans? Thats because there are plenty of Greeks, Turks, and Lebanese in the North. And what do you mean by Middle Eastern stereotype? Not all MEs look the same, the average Yemeni or saudi looks different than a Lebanese, Syrian, or Palestinian Shomarka Keita studied Upper egyptian mummy hair and found that it fell well within the range for sub-Saharan Africans(which include East Africans). Joanne Fletcher has been debunked as a fraud and barred from even doing any research in Egypt Dude, this is beating lame strawmen What bullshit, some are messed up but some are not, please at least take the time to name those with low self-esteem. Bullshit, you don't know what African-Americans look at in black history probably because you don't know anything about African Americans, you're just rehashing the same shit I've saw in almost every forum by those who wish to make an attack on Afrocentrism. Besides Egypt, there are more than enough glorious civilizations in Africa to look at and behold. Bullshit. Whats disgusting is white people talking about white Aryans and pale Nordics being superior to everyone, Nordic Egypt, white Libyan rulers in Nubia, mythological pastoral Europeans(so-called hamites) with black skin invading Africa wave after wave, creating Pilt-Down Man, and other such frauds to put Europeans and whites in the forefront of all history and civilization, thats f*cking disgusting. Listen f*cker, you don't speak for African-Americans and what problems they have, Europe and the Middle east have problems too, but you know jack shit about American black problems. this thread was about ancient egyptian being culturally African, not about African-Americans claiming egypt so keep the ad-hominem bullshit to yourself. most African-american know nothing about ancient egypt and could give a f*ck less about what race they are. i speak for African-Americans because I was born one and have lived among them for the greater part of my life Modern Egypt maybe(and thats questionable, alot of egyptians don't consider themselves as Arabs), but ANCIENT EGYPT was NOT culturally, racially and geographically middle eastern. Modern egypt is geographically African and the people are NOT all racially Middle eastern.
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Post by alexandrian on Jan 14, 2005 18:47:06 GMT -5
YOu have never been to egypt or even seen an Egyptian probably so I'll take your opinions at face value. Firstly, this idea that Upper Egyptians are black is a complete myth. Sure, some have negroid admixture, but many are Nubian. In the wake of the Aswan High Dam when Nubian villages had to be demolished, Nubians were repatriated as far north as Kom Ombo- don't assume blacks are Egyptians. Moreover, the average Egyptian is actually lighter w/more Caucasian features than the average Saudi, with Palestinians they are virtually indistinguishable and you know it. If you took an Egyptian from Luxor or Assiut and put them in Gaza, Ramallah, or Muscat, they would be indistinguishable from the local population. When I last traveled to Luxor- I myself was surprised at how little difference there was between Luxoris and Egyptians in more northern provinces. Moreover, Middle Egyptians have very Caucasian features. These are Cots protesting at the Coptic cathedral at Abbasiya- clearly these people are NOT negroid. Naguib Sawiris- billionaire telecom mogul whose family is from Assiut The funny thing is, Egyptians are actually lighter and more Caucasian than Arabians (especially Omanis, Yemenis, and southern Saudis, who are very dark) and University of Cairo conducted DNA experiments of the remains of the pyramid builders and deduced they are very similar to modern-day egyptians. Shomarka Keita is the most unreliable person to quote possible. He is an ardent Afrocentrist, none of his ideas or studies are peer-approved, and he is not licensed by the Egyptian SCA (Supreme Council of Antiquities). As for Joanne Fletcher, none of her theses have been discredited, the only reason she was suspended from Egypt was because she falsely reported the location of Nefertiti's tomb, against the beliefs of the SCA. No one has refuted her claims on egyptian hair. Moreover, In a study by Hosch of the five North African populations- egyptians and libyans were the smallest genetic distance away from Europe. Also, although many Egyptians don't consider themselves ARab (I myself don't consider myself ARab), I never said they did. We consider ourselves Middle eastern. Which does not necessitate Arab. Egyptians, Libyans, Palestinians, and Iraqis are all Middle eastern and none are ethnically Arab per se. Same of Turks and Iranians. I consider myself Mediterranean, as I've said before. My comments on African-americans were true and heartfelt. When Bill Cosby dares utter similar words, he gets shut down. The basis of Afrocentrism has almost no scientific basis it is just a meak attempt by african-americans to find something in their history to be proud of, and they have to resort to thievery. I don't think there is a single black African civilization that can come close to matching the Egyptians or Carthaginians. As for you saying there are similarites between egyptians and east africans without west asian inclusion- thats bullshit. Obviously, egyptians are closer to west asians than east africans when both are included. Also, African-Americans like yourself are WEst AFrican, so either way you still can not claim egypt. Cavalli-Sforza did indeed group Egyptians with Europeans rather than black AFricans. As to you saying Nordicism is disgusting. I could not agree more. Yet, how is it different from radical AFrocentrism? They are both disgusting. Why do you only think one if?
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Berter
New Member
Et si on fait un tour ensemble, Nouna!?
Posts: 6
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Post by Berter on Jan 15, 2005 14:59:01 GMT -5
Alexandrian, You seem to be well informed for a new member . . Moreover, the average Egyptian is actually lighter w/more Caucasian features than the average Saudi, True. I think the average egyptian is darker than the average palestinian, omanian or bahrainian; Something inherited from their forefathers . You confirm my thoughts on the AEs's race. What a great find ;D, Do egyptians want us to believe their own conclusions!?. We will trust only DNA studies made by foreign and independant laboratories. Otherwise, we will still believe that these pyramids builders were...hebrews ;D (kidding). Got any link to this study !?... " I should be the GREAT LIAR of all times !?" ;D.
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Post by alexandrian on Jan 15, 2005 19:04:02 GMT -5
Alexandrian, You seem to be well informed for a new member . Thank you I think the average egyptian is darker than the average palestinian, omanian or bahrainian; Something inherited from their forefathers . I am happy that you agreed with me on the saudis, but in the case of palestinians and omanis, I beg to differ. Looking at Omanis like Sultan Qaboos, various memebers of the famille royale and Muscati citizens, they seem to me significantly darker than your average Egyptian, sometimes with quasi-negroid characteristics, especially regarding the nose. As for Palestinians, many in the Gaza strip have Egyptian roots, and oftentimes Palestinian refugees in Egypt have a hard time standing out. You confirm my thoughts on the AEs's race. I'm glad we agree. What a great find ;D, Do egyptians want us to believe their own conclusions!?. We will trust only DNA studies made by foreign and independant laboratories. Otherwise, we will still believe that these pyramids builders were...hebrews ;D (kidding). ;D, haha, I suppose Egyptians aren't world-renowned for their dependability...to put it mildly...yet, let's try and give these researchers the benefit of the doubt Got any link to this study !?... I had it at one point, but have lost it. The citation is on the RAcial Reality site, if you'd like to look at it.
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Post by Shenuda on Jan 17, 2005 9:00:22 GMT -5
If you take an average Egyptian, a Palestinian, and a Saudi and lined them up, you couldn't tell the difference. As having been to egypt nearly a dozen times, I can attest that most Egyptians fit the typical Middle Eastern stereotype, while those in the North often look strikingly similar to Greeks, Turks, or Lebanese, especially if they work in offices. An average Egyptian is certainly different from an average Saudi or Palestinian. Most Egyptians look somehow "Middle Eastern" but it doesn´t mean that they look exactly like Syrians or Iraqis. And there are certainly many Egyptians who work in offices and are dark-skined. Wrong! Egypt is certainly African in geographical sense. Culturally it´s Middle Eastern country and racially are Egyptians mostly caucasoid with negroid admixture which is considerable especially in the South(el Sa3eed el Gowwani).
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Post by Shenuda on Jan 17, 2005 9:12:16 GMT -5
I am happy that you agreed with me on the saudis, but in the case of palestinians and omanis, I beg to differ. Looking at Omanis like Sultan Qaboos, various memebers of the famille royale and Muscati citizens, they seem to me significantly darker than your average Egyptian, sometimes with quasi-negroid characteristics, especially regarding the nose. As for Palestinians, many in the Gaza strip have Egyptian roots, and oftentimes Palestinian refugees in Egypt have a hard time standing out. Not all people from Arab peninsula are dark-skined, arab-mulatto types ;D I saw some Yemenis,Saudis and Kuwaytis who are light-skined and quite "mediterrean-looking". Just look at Saudi king, who certainly doesn´t look "quasi-negroid" ;D By the way, look at these Masreeyeen: I am just curious how many Syrians look like them ...
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Post by Shenuda on Jan 17, 2005 10:04:53 GMT -5
Something else is the fact that (North)Americans usually consider everybody with some negroid admixture to be "black". Even somebody like Vin Diesel could be called "black" in USA: I am not sure if an average Egyptian is lighter than an average Saudi but I don´t think that Egyptians are indistinguishable from Palestinians.Certainly not those from Luxor. Luxoris: And these boys are from Qena which is even more in the North and they DON´T look like (most) Palestinians: They are not black,but some of them have probably some negroid admixture. Anyway the pick is too small to say it exactly As I said I saw some quite Mediterrean looking Yemenis + Egyptians are certainly not more "Caucasian" looking than Omanis,Yemenis or southern Saudis. But I agree with you that modern Masreeyeen are direct descendants of pharaonic people
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Post by alexandrian on Jan 17, 2005 13:16:03 GMT -5
I only saw negroid admixture in two of the martyrs you posted....I do think you're posting pics of Egyptians that are too dark to represent the typical egyptian population. Naguib Sawiris is from an Assiuti Coptic family, probably a direct descendant of the Pharoahs, and he is very light-skinned, when I posted his pic in the guess race page, someone thought he was russian.
As for LUxoris, When I went to Luxor, they looked the same as Cairenese, my tour guide, who was Coptic, looked like a mirror image of Zahi Hawass, and another Coptic merchant (who had an air-conditioned store, if it makes a difference) had light, rosy skin, a r oundish head, and straight, very thing, brown hair. As for Yemenis, those in Sanaa would fit in well in very southern Egyptian villages, and would probably stand out as dark if they were in Alexandria or Cairo. Have you seen Sultan Qaboos of Oman, he is much darker and more negroid than the average Egyptian. YEmenis, Omanis, and southern Saudis do have a tendency to be darker than Lower and Middle Egyptians and similar to many Upper Egyptians. Palestinians is debatable, but Palestinian refugees are indistinguishable from the native Cairene population. As per the picture of the protestors I had, I saw it up close and I didn't see any visible negroid influence in any of the faces. Those faces could really belong to any Palestinian or Iraqi. The one whos face is flushed red with anger looks a bit Syrian, but maybe thats just becuase of his rosy complexion.
As for geography, I consider Egypt part of the Middle East. We have always looked in that direction since antiquity, and the only African civilizations we had contact with were NIltoic nubia, and places on the HOrn of Africa, both of which had extensive contacts with the Arabian peninsula. National Geographic included egypt in all its mid east map. I'd like to remind you that the Sinai is technically part of Asia, so if we want to be technical, more egyptian land is in asia than turkish land in europe. As for race, I have no doubt numerous Egyptians, especially in the south, have some Negroid blood, but I think they are far from the majority, especially in Middle and Lower Egypt where most of the population resides. Even in Upper Egypt, I think it is a rare occurence that someone's Negroid admixture goes beyond 30-40%.
I definitely agree with you though, Egyptians are the descendants of the Pharoahs. If you see the heiroglyphs and stauettes of soldiers, you can just imagine them roaming around Midan al-Tahrir or walking along the Corniche of any egyptian city. Misr is really Omm el Donya.
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Berter
New Member
Et si on fait un tour ensemble, Nouna!?
Posts: 6
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Post by Berter on Jan 17, 2005 14:08:44 GMT -5
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Post by Shenuda on Jan 18, 2005 4:21:44 GMT -5
hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ... ;D ;D ;D di 7elwa di
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