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Post by alex221166 on Mar 7, 2004 9:59:12 GMT -5
My people are the Absentee Shawnee. We have tripled in numbers since the 1700's. Now that's something new! Not your numbers having tripled that was to be expected (since you consider everyone with 1/16 Indian blood to still be an Indian, that was inevitable... You probably have Indians that only found their Indian soul when they were told by their grabdma that their great great great grandfather descended from a squaw). What I find surprising is that you don't have that "All Indians are my brothers" pan-Amerindian bullshit. Everyone knows that the Indians had been wacking each other's heads for thousands of years - which is why I repeat that the notion that Indians were living like "The Lion King" or like "Bambi" is a crock of bull.
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Post by alex221166 on Mar 7, 2004 10:08:09 GMT -5
Indeed, no matter which way you spin it, there is no excuse for this injustice. A war of conquest is not about justice - it is about the survival of the strongest. You do know that the Indians that now live in Central and in South America, were pushed South by YOUR ancestors, don't you? Hey: 30 years ago my country had 3x its present population, ~100x its present size and over 1 million veteran soldiers!!! I want it all back, it is not fair!!! (I wonder if that will work?)
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Post by alex221166 on Mar 7, 2004 10:16:21 GMT -5
There is racism against whites. The Chinese consider white people to be red haired monkeys and foreign devils. That does not sound too hot does it? In Australia all Europeans hear is how Europeans did this or did that to various people: Aborigines, Pacific Islanders and New Guineans. Personally I can't feel responsible for the actions of stupid, bigoted people who happen to be Europeans. Look at what the Indonesians ( Javanese ethnic group actually) do in Aceh or Irian Jaya or what they did in East Timor. The Japanese have a long history of racial tolerance, don't they? So all you haters of European people, don't come the raw prawn with me. You'll need to learn Australian English to understand that. All races, ethnic groups have blood on their hands. The black slave trade started in Africa by Africans and was going on centuries in Africa before European became involved. Now Europeans have to put up with being told of our disconnection with our land, our Earth mother or lack of spirituality or our inability to love or whatever. Doesn't that sound like prejudice and racism? Excellent post Graeme. You summed pretty well everything I wanted to say about this subject. This Afrocentrist/Amerindianocentrist post-colonialist bullshit is making me sick to the stomach. The Mongols killed more people than any other people in history. Why not bug them?
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Post by Charlie Bass on Mar 7, 2004 10:20:48 GMT -5
A war of conquest is not about justice - it is about the survival of the strongest. I disagree with you here. Whole populations of native Americans were exterminated. Genocide isn't about survival of the strongest. Can we justify stronger countries using aggression against weaker countries(Iraq-Kuwait, Nazi Germany-almost all of Europe) as survival of the strongest? I'm sorry, but you cannot justify acts that borderline on genocide as survival of the strongest.
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Post by Charlie Bass on Mar 7, 2004 10:22:53 GMT -5
Excellent post Graeme. You summed pretty well everything I wanted to say about this subject. This Afrocentrist/Amerindianocentrist post-colonialist bullshit is making me sick to the stomach. The Mongols killed more people than any other people in history. Why not bug them? I think you have a case of white gulit or should I say, a failure to acknowledge wrongs reaped on other people.
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Post by Charlie Bass on Mar 7, 2004 10:42:25 GMT -5
The Mongols killed more people than any other people in history. Why not bug them? [/quote]
Why talk about the Mongols? They have done wrong, but Mongols did not exploit, enslaved, and colonize people in Africa, Asia, North America, South America, and Australia. You tried to even pass off what Europeans did as “survival of the strongest.” Thats an excuse. You can’t point out what others have done wrong to excuse what Europeans have done. What Europeans have done in this realm affected people from all continents.
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Post by Mouguias on Mar 7, 2004 12:18:57 GMT -5
>>Why talk about the Mongols?
And why nor? Is it sort of "compulsory" to bash Europeans while letting others untouched?
>>They have done wrong, but Mongols did not exploit, enslaved, and colonize people in Africa, Asia, North America, South America, and Australia.
Interesting...I guess Genghis and Tamerlan, after making pyramids with human skulls all over Central Asia, thought for a moment: "Hey, wait, why don`t we sail SE to Australia and enslave locals? But no, that would be inmoral..." My point is, Europeans commited terrible crimes against other peoples simply because they COULD. It was their overwhelming technological superiority that allowed them to do so. If Mongols, Aztecs or Yoruba didn`t do the same it was not due to their being more merciful or respectful to other cultures - they simply didn`t have a clue that there were other cultures at all, let alone how to submit them! It was not whites who brought war, massacres and opression to the Americas, Africa and Oceania: its native inhabitants had unfolded them long before whites arrived (for the record, the Maoris were not the first to discover New Zealand - guess what happened to the locals when these fierce warriors arrived). However, it was Europeans who first defined an ideal of justice among peoples - them who first worried to be fair with their new subjects, instead of simply slaying them all. Let`s remember that, were not for humanitarism, which happens to be a totally European ideal, this whole discussion wouldn`t have the least ground. Instead it would be something of the sort: "We Europeans defeated you all, people in four continents - great is our glory!!!"
Ramsharma >>Nice attempt at trying to denigrate a culture different from yours in order to justify subjucation of these people. What you described might be immoral and savagery from a Eurocentric perspective, but to them, it was their way of life
I totally adhere to cultural relativism. Which means, being a western man myself, I can see other cultures only from a western perspective, that is to say, things like cannibalism, maiming of clitoris, human sacrifices and so on - are to me examples of savagery that must be erased at any cost from Earth. I`m sorry, I simply have been raised in this western culture, imperialism is a highly steemed value for us.
>>To me, it is OK for a group to practice their way of life, as long as they do not impose their way on others.
Why? On which grounds do you sustain such a value? Many cultures see raids, looting and imperialism as their natural "way of life". Who are you to judge their culture? Is it OK to slay 90 000 people in the altars of strange gods, but it is wrong to conquer and submit your neighbours? Why?
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Post by Mouguias on Mar 7, 2004 12:22:44 GMT -5
Kukul-kan, keep the good work. It is great to read posts from an informed person. Man, you smashed the other guy!
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Post by AWAR on Mar 7, 2004 12:26:52 GMT -5
Why talk about the Mongols? They have done wrong, but Mongols did not exploit, enslaved, and colonize people in Africa, Asia, North America, South America, and Australia. You tried to even pass off what Europeans did as “survival of the strongest.” Thats an excuse. You can’t point out what others have done wrong to excuse what Europeans have done. What Europeans have done in this realm affected people from all continents. That's either one of the stupidest things I've read in recent times or one of the lamest attempts at twisting the truth. Indians have choices before them: 1. They can abuse the current liberal style of thinking and try to impose a guilt-trip at ALL caucasoids from Seattle to Vienna to Marakesh to Belgrade to Baghdad to Calcutta ( until one day whites become thick-skinned and weary of such accusations which would result in a serious anti-amerindian, very racist backlash ). 2. The Amerindians can politely ask all non-amerindian Americans to move out of the continents. ( which could cause hysterical laughter or hatred ) 3. The Amerindians can stop whinning and start work to preserve their culture, identity, phenotype, genotype etc. ( which would make a strong basis for future, in which the tables might turn, and they get the right to dictate rules ).
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Post by caucasoid on Mar 7, 2004 12:31:53 GMT -5
You tried to even pass off what Europeans did as “survival of the strongest.” Thats an excuse. You can’t point out what others have done wrong to excuse what Europeans have done. Selfish genes are what see to self-preservation. This means there is no moral component to human history.
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Post by AWAR on Mar 7, 2004 12:39:52 GMT -5
I totally adhere to cultural relativism. Which means, being a western man myself, I can see other cultures only from a western perspective, that is to say, things like cannibalism, maiming of clitoris, human sacrifices and so on - are to me examples of savagery that must be erased at any cost from Earth. I`m sorry, I simply have been raised in this western culture, imperialism is a highly steemed value for us. >>To me, it is OK for a group to practice their way of life, as long as they do not impose their way on others. Why? On which grounds do you sustain such a value? Many cultures see raids, looting and imperialism as their natural "way of life". Who are you to judge their culture? Is it OK to slay 90 000 people in the altars of strange gods, but it is wrong to conquer and submit your neighbours? Why? Exactly! If cannibalism of some peoples is to be respected and preserved, then imperialism is also to be praised and preserved as a caucasoid trait
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Post by Mouguias on Mar 7, 2004 12:41:51 GMT -5
But to be fair... I can respect (to a point) Tecumseh`s ideas. I mean he sounds like some sort of classical nationalist. If we respect Armenian or Scot nationalists, why not nationalists from Amerindian nations? I think Victim studies stink, and so does Holocaustomania (I agree with you on this point, Tecumseh), but Amerindians really have a point. Tecumseh, I expect I don`t sound patronizing, but I think natives from N.America should split from "professional victims" such as blacks, Jews and the like. You don`t need them. I think you should follow the path that other Indian nations are opening in Central and South America. The Quechua nation is achieving a grip of power in Ecuador, for example. And Quechua nationalism is growing stronger all along the Andes. Look at them. And give up all that "Blame the whites" BS. Really, that is just plain biased history, and won`t lead you anywhere.
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Post by Charlie Bass on Mar 7, 2004 13:15:55 GMT -5
>>Why talk about the Mongols? And why nor? Is it sort of "compulsory" to bash Europeans while letting others untouched? That in no way is my point. Europeans need to be accountable for the wrongs done to others instead of making up excuses and worrying about what others have done wrong. It is true that there were wars among African, North American, South America, Asian, and Australian peoples beofre Europeans arrived, but they never warred to the point of wiping themselves out to extinction. In the Carribbean, North America, Australia, and Canary Islands, there were still relatively large populations before Europeans arrived. After Europeans arrived their numbers were either dramatically reduced far less than what they were, or altogether exterminated. This cannot be passed off as survival of the strongest, since they were thriving and living before Europeans arrived. This is a contradiction to what you just said. How can you on one hand say there was warring between "tribes" in these lands before Europeans, then turn around and say they simply didn't have a clue there were other cultures at all, let alone how to submit them? In the case of Africa, there is an abundance of evidence that they knew about other peoples and cultures. They didn't sit back in the dark waiting for "superior" Europeans to reveal the world to them. Rubbish. People didn't live unorganized, and without law and order before Europeans arrived. There is an abundance of evidence that refutes this. Archaeology reveals there were many highly developed and stratified societies in Africa, South America, and Asia before the coming of Europeans. You speak from a twisted highly ethnocentric point of view. And you complain of non-Europeans criticizing the actions of Europeans. You've given ample reason to be criticized. Europeans are guilty as both. If that be the case, all of Europe should have sit back and let Hitler conquer. After all to you its perfectly ok to conquer and submit one's neighbors.
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Post by Charlie Bass on Mar 7, 2004 13:27:45 GMT -5
That's either one of the stupidest things I've read in recent times or one of the lamest attempts at twisting the truth. I think you're in deep stubborn denial If European imperialists all would have thought like that they would not have mixed with the native populations they "subjected."
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Post by AWAR on Mar 7, 2004 13:56:03 GMT -5
I think you're in deep stubborn denial I'm a man whose all ancestors remained in Europe, and fought off a number of asiatic invasions. What you said bears absolutely no relevance to my original statement. If you quote me, be sure to reply to what I said, don't use retarded trolling tactics, please. Amerindians are still not out in the clear, they, like many other peoples on earth are in danger of becoming extinct. The fact that amerindians are at all able to whine about history speaks in favour of the conscience, rationality and respectability of white people in America today. If the currents of history change, and a previously known spirit of destructiveness rears it's ugly head again, the Amerindians might find themselves quickly wiped out of existence. Basically, Amerindians should use this time of peace to strengthern their ethnic and national positions, to learn their language, culture and to build a strong identity for the future for themselves. If they spenf their time whinning and complaining, they'll last only as long as the majority of Americans feel like cutting the amerindians some slack. My ancestral lands were under the attack of Turks for centuries, but we survived. But, what are we going to do now? Whine to Turks? Whine about centuries we spent fighting when we could've been artists and scientists? Are Poles and Russians supposed to whine to Mongols? Of course not, we're not wimps like you people. ( whatever the hell you are ).
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