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Post by ramsharma on Mar 6, 2004 9:32:10 GMT -5
"And they sacrificed their prisoners (or slaves of war) by removing their hearts while they were still beating. Many other Indians were cannibals that used to eat Europeans and other native Americans. "
Nice attempt at trying to denigrate a culture different from yours in order to justify subjucation of these people. What you described might be immoral and savagery from a Eurocentric perspective, but to them, it was their way of life. People from different locations have different values Papuans might indulge in cannibalism, which might appear to be a savage act, but what do THEY think of the ritual. We need to consider their perspective also. To me, it is OK for a group to practice their way of life, as long as they do not impose their way on others. This is exactly where the Europeans have failed. Not to mention Muslims also.
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Post by rusalka on Mar 6, 2004 10:31:54 GMT -5
Don't be so sure. I just turned 18 Well that explains a lot, I think. History has TWO sides Tecumseh. Always. No matter how much America's guild trip is trying to make us believe that ALL the native peoples in the continent were happy, fluffy inhabitants, not all of them were. That said, it doesn't justify the fact that the land originally belonged to them, and they had no right to take over, I grant you that. But twisting up history to support that claim makes that claim less worthy.
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Post by Kukul-Kan on Mar 6, 2004 10:39:09 GMT -5
First of all, "endless bloodbath" is a bit of an exageration. No it’s not. The Aztecs sacrificed once more than 10,000 Amerindians who belonged to other tribes in less than a week. Yes they did. Slavery was more common in Mesoamerica than it was in Europe for the simple reason Europeans had large animals, unlike Americans. The Mesoamericans even had a name for the slaves who were only used as animals to carry good, the Tamemes.To this day tameme is still used as an insult in Mexico. The Aztecs were ruthless warriors that had no mercy and little respect to their enemies. That’s why they were the most powerful tribe in Mesoamerica ever. By the way, Hernán Cortés' Cnquistadors weren’t more than 2000 whereas their Indian allies were nearly 80,000.As I said, the Aztecs were ruthless excellent warriors who had little respect to their enemies’ lifes, that’s why Cortés was able to gather such a big army, Perhaps, some lost uncivilized tribes in the US. Mesoamericans were anything but peaceful. Amerindians are still pretty violent in their fights. That’s why they make good soldiers (The best low ranking soldiers in the Mexican army are still Amerindians), plus in the battle of Puebla(What’s known in the Us as Cinco de Mayo) an Amerindian army beatted the French army with nothing else but their machetes. The modern Zapatists are nothing but a bunch of Mestizos who get advantage of poor Indians in order to satisfy their personal ambitions.
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Post by Kukul-Kan on Mar 6, 2004 11:04:10 GMT -5
The mythological origin of the Mexican nation is nothing but the ethnogenseis and rise of the Aztec empire. Paradoxically this myth was adopted and promoted in the modern era not by Amerindians and Mestizos but by Creoles influenced by the Nationalistic thought in Europe. Understanding human sacrifice in Mesoamerica mesoweb.com/features/jpl/media/MNA087.jpg[/img]In Aztec mythology, the underworld was ruled over by its Lord and Lady. It was a gloomy place, reached by the dead only after wandering for years beneath the earth accompanied by a "soul-companion", a dog cremated with the corpse. mesoweb.com/features/life_death/life00.html
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Scoob
Full Member
Posts: 157
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Post by Scoob on Mar 6, 2004 15:27:46 GMT -5
The whole subject of racism (meaning overt or covert race war - be it open or a quiet "cold war") - is a mess.
If the races don't get along they need to either: 1. Breed (not recommended between people out of harmony) 2. Move apart 3. Fight and may the best men win
The whole whining tactic is unfit for a man.
Anyone who says "I was oppressed" or "I was enslaved" is saying "I am weak, or stupid - I am a loser." It should hurt to say such things.
Men of character who have made mistakes or been losers do not whine - they learn from their mistakes and work to improve their lot in life.
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Post by AWAR on Mar 6, 2004 20:13:53 GMT -5
Scoob summed it up rather nicely, I wouldn't add anything to that. Tecumseh reminds me of skinheads whinnings and logical fallacies about Russians being non-aryan scum unable to recognize and bow down before the "greatness" of the German Aryan race I guess that's why "non-Aryan" Russians defeated the "great Aryan" Germans and then some
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Post by Tecumseh on Mar 6, 2004 23:59:11 GMT -5
Karma? I wonder if that was why "your people" is almost extinct... My people are the Absentee Shawnee. We have tripled in numbers since the 1700's. I'm sure, which is why you brought up typical off-topic trivial shit whites use to ease their guilt. I'm about as black as light-brown gets.
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Post by Tecumseh on Mar 7, 2004 0:23:10 GMT -5
Well that explains a lot, I think. History has TWO sides Tecumseh. Always. No matter how much America's guild trip is trying to make us believe that ALL the native peoples in the continent were happy, fluffy inhabitants, not all of them were. And here in America, we learn ONE side. Indeed, no matter which way you spin it, there is no excuse for this injustice. Nah, man. I'm not twisting anything up.
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Post by Tecumseh on Mar 7, 2004 0:34:11 GMT -5
No it’s not. The Aztecs sacrificed once more than 10,000 Amerindians who belonged to other tribes in less than a week. The Spaniards claim to have witnessed this, yet, it's been proven wrong. Are you serious?! Either way you're missing the point; American slavery is the focus of discussion here. Why are you stuck on the Mexica? There were 20 million "Aztecs" slaughtered in that region alone... No... Europeans were the more violent people, for instance; the French taught my people how to scalp. We may be athletically superior, but that doesn't make us uncivilized or violent. LOL @ this Criollo. You know that flag you use as your avatar represents the people of the sun?
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Post by Tecumseh on Mar 7, 2004 0:37:48 GMT -5
The whole subject of racism (meaning overt or covert race war - be it open or a quiet "cold war") - is a mess. If the races don't get along they need to either: 1. Breed (not recommended between people out of harmony) 2. Move apart 3. Fight and may the best men win The whole whining tactic is unfit for a man. Anyone who says "I was oppressed" or "I was enslaved" is saying "I am weak, or stupid - I am a loser." It should hurt to say such things. Men of character who have made mistakes or been losers do not whine - they learn from their mistakes and work to improve their lot in life. Oh, the irony... I didn't start this thread, your boy AWAR is responsible. It's apparent this post applies to him.
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Post by Tecumseh on Mar 7, 2004 0:39:23 GMT -5
Scoob summed it up rather nicely, I wouldn't add anything to that. Tecumseh reminds me of skinheads whinnings and logical fallacies about Russians being non-aryan scum unable to recognize and bow down before the "greatness" of the German Aryan race I guess that's why "non-Aryan" Russians defeated the "great Aryan" Germans and then some a) What is your obsession with Russians? b) You're still avoiding my question: In what way am I being racist?
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Post by Kukul-Kan on Mar 7, 2004 8:27:13 GMT -5
The Spaniards claim to have witnessed this, yet, it's been proven wrong. What are you talking about? The Spaniards hadn’t even discovered America when that happened. It happened in 1487 in the inauguration of the Great Temple. I actually gave you a conservative figure because some Mexican historians and archaeologists based on Aztec accounts themselves believe that as many as 80,400 people were sacrificed in more or less five days. You see the Aztecs believed they were the Gods’ chosen people. They believed that if they didn’t feed the Sun with blood the world as they knew it and the entire humanity would die. So they actually believed they were doing a sacred mission. No I didn’t miss it. You clearly said slavery wasn’t practiced in a mass scale in Mesoamerica when that statement is actually wrong. Because I was correcting some false statements of yours in regards to them. Not every Indian in what’s know Mexico was an Aztec.Most of those so called “slaughtered” Indians actually died of smallpox. You said Indians were peace loving people. Well in Mesoamerica they were warlike people with pretty brutal methods that are still seen to this day among them. By the way I didn’t mean to say uncivilized as an insult but civilization as it was known in Mesoamerica didn’t exist in pre-colonized America. Yes I know and if it hadn’t been for Criollos the Aztec mythology and legacy, including that shield, would have been lost nor Mexico would be independent. As for the Zapatists they have been more prejudicial to Amerindians than good.
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Post by AWAR on Mar 7, 2004 9:21:23 GMT -5
Tecumseh, you qualify as racist. You're some sort of 'native-supremacist', and you blame white people for everything wrong in your life and "your people's" history.
You can whine all you want, but nobody really cares, the things are the way they are, if you want, do something about it, if not, just continue to be an irrelevant and ignorant whiner.
BTW. Everyone thinks you're a Mexican because you try to claim the aztecs and their achievments as part of your ancestry, when it isn't.
Your ancestors probably were ( or would be )slaughtered by the Aztecs.
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Post by Kukul-Kan on Mar 7, 2004 9:39:11 GMT -5
Here’s an Aztec description of Huitzilopochtli, the God of War and main divinity in the Aztec pantheon, so you can see if they were peace loving people or that they loved their slaves.
Huitzilopochtli, Only a subject, Only a mortal was. A magician, A terror, A stirrer of strife, A deceiver, A maker of war, An arranger of battles, A lord of battles; And of him it was said That he hurled His flaming serpent, His fire stick; Which means war, Blood and burning; And when his festival was celebrated, Captives were slain, Washed slaves were slain, The merchants washed them. And thus he was arrayed: With head-dress of green feathers, Holding his serpent torch, Girded with a belt, Bracelets upon his arms, Wearing turquoises, As a master of messengers.
Of course you can find peaceful poems like this one:
I love the song of the Zenzontle, bird of four hundred voices I love the color of jade and the enervating perfume of flowers but I love even more, my brother man.
Nezahualcóyotl
But this wasn’t written by an Aztec properly, but a member of another Uto-Aztecan speaking tribe. the king of Texcoco, Nezahualcóyotl, who paradoxically had killed his brother to get into the power. The people from Texcoco ended up fighting with the Spaniards even though they were supposed allies of the Aztecs.
P.s. Very few people know that the Aztecs actually had gladiatorial games like the Romans.
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Post by Graeme on Mar 7, 2004 9:45:19 GMT -5
There is racism against whites. The Chinese consider white people to be red haired monkeys and foreign devils. That does not sound too hot does it? In Australia all Europeans hear is how Europeans did this or did that to various people: Aborigines, Pacific Islanders and New Guineans. Personally I can't feel responsible for the actions of stupid, bigoted people who happen to be Europeans. Look at what the Indonesians ( Javanese ethnic group actually) do in Aceh or Irian Jaya or what they did in East Timor. The Japanese have a long history of racial tolerance, don't they?
So all you haters of European people, don't come the raw prawn with me. You'll need to learn Australian English to understand that. All races, ethnic groups have blood on their hands. The black slave trade started in Africa by Africans and was going on centuries in Africa before European became involved. Now Europeans have to put up with being told of our disconnection with our land, our Earth mother or lack of spirituality or our inability to love or whatever. Doesn't that sound like prejudice and racism?
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