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Post by It-Alien on Dec 18, 2004 5:05:10 GMT -5
I seriously doubt that any American has an idea of what it felt to many Europeans to see Serbia being bombed, particularly after we knew that you had used radioactive materials. I remember Italy's lefty goverment was also involved and Serbians i knew were very angry & ignored the Italians they knew.
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Post by Satyros on Dec 18, 2004 6:32:53 GMT -5
I understand that some Americans may come off as arrogant and ignorant, but please that's far from all of us. I also understand that the war in Iraq and President Bush has also lowered our standing in the world amongst other nations, and I will come right out and say that I also disagreed (and still do) with the way Bush went about invading Iraq. MANY other Americans share the same sentiment. Do not think our government and/or the few rude/ignorant Americans represent the majority of us. I think we deserve a hell of a lot more respect than you're giving us Satyros. And the truth is, America has contributed quite a bit in making the world a better place to live in. Btw, I don't think the previous sentence reflects arrogance on my part, for I know that many other countries have done their part as well. Listen, i dont doubt that you are a "nice guy", but being a nice guy over the internet in some international forum, can not make me forget the American history of crime and intervention all around the world, can it? There is a proverb of Greek folk wisdom which goes like this: "Along with the dry, burn the unseasoned", meaning that when a fire breaks out, along with the dry wood inevitably will burn the unseasoned too. Which means, sometimes, the innocent pay along with the guilty. So, if you are living in a country which legitimizes the loss of millions of innocent lives in her history of intervention and war and crime, as "collateral damage", you will not get any sympathy from me, i wont call you "innocent" cause you re being a "nice guy" over the f*cking internet and call the Americans who voted for Bush "guilty". You are all the same to me, you live in one nation, you are one nation, if its not your fault, its the fault of some other member of your family! And where i come from, family members can pay for something their relative has done.. So you believe America has made the world a better place. Maybe so. But i want them out of Europe. What they have offered must be weighted in the left hand of their statue of "Freedom" with all the evils they have done. Then we should decide if in the end of the day they are a righteous or an evil empire. If Hitler had won, despite all the "collateral damage", the world may have been an even better place than how America has made it. Or how about the Russkies? If Communism had prevailed the Cold War, the world today may have been a socialist paradise. Why should i thank America for including me in her Empire? Anyway, the fact is i want Americans out of Europe.
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Post by Satyros on Dec 18, 2004 6:37:56 GMT -5
That's why we need a European Army. Very true, European Commitment, should transform from economical ties to political and military solid alliances.
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Post by Satyros on Dec 18, 2004 9:10:06 GMT -5
Sorry i meant the statue of Liberty.
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Post by Italian Stallion on Dec 18, 2004 9:30:29 GMT -5
If Hitler had won, despite all the "collateral damage", the world may have been an even better place than how America has made it. Or how about the Russkies? If Communism had prevailed the Cold War, the world today may have been a socialist paradise. Why should i thank America for including me in her Empire? Anyway, the fact is i want Americans out of Europe. Retard, if Hitler had won, you and your countrymen ( the greeks) would have been viewed as second class humans compared to the "aryians". Killed off indiscriminately if Aryian lands became overpopulated. Ignoramus, the Russkies killed 10 million of their own people in gulags. Is that socialist progress? As I seem to recall, people were escaping the communist east to get to the west during the cold war.... not the other way around. Chinese are leaving their socialist paradise in droves to get to the west. North Korea is a Utopia indeed. Cubans set sail everyday for the United states... because their communist Illuminati think they still have a hope of transforming that island into wonderland.
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Post by ulvesang on Dec 18, 2004 23:32:19 GMT -5
All forms of communism implemented on a government level have just been monoplolistic capitalism in disguise. Look at the USSR: the country was falling apart like a leper, but the Communist Party was living it up in riches and glamour. The closest thing to true Marxist communism ever implemented at a national level was Sweden in the 60's-80's, before they began opening their doors to foreign interest and causing the system to fall apart. However this was still WORLDS away from being even a hint of evolutonary communism.
That's the trouble with real communism: you can never force capitalists at heart to become communist, and so the revolution has to start in the spirit. Also, once a capitalist entity is introduced into a communist system, it quickly uproots the entire thing.
America has impermeated the world with its view of "freedom." Money is inherently opposed to freedom. Also, independent corporations that operate for money, and which lose all connection to the PEOPLE that make the company, is Big Brother a la H. G. Wells. Everywhere you go you see America: "we're showing you freedom, truth, and we lead the wave of the future. We'll shape your thoughts for you. Through stocks, lawsuits, trusts, banks, and economics you will find enlightenment."
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Post by ulvesang on Dec 18, 2004 23:39:28 GMT -5
Why should i thank America for including me in her Empire? Anyway, the fact is i want Americans out of Europe. I am tired of people being unable to affect situations they have been born into. Today's European doesn't want to be under the "protection" of the US. How many German, Danish, or Spanish military bases do you see in the US? None. How long can you count in one day before you see some blaring presence of America? How much of our lives really are "European?" An even worse case is the people that didn't want to be born as Americans, but were so anyway. It's almost impossible for an American to lose his citizenship for another country, especially countries as progressive and open as many in Europe.
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Post by LibLabDog on Dec 18, 2004 23:45:12 GMT -5
What do you suggest we do instead of courts? ...Thumbwrestle?
Yeah, sometimes Coorporations are ruthlessly proffit driven. It requires an educated public to keep them in check. ...But Coorporations also provide goods and services, and often with great efficiency.
Money CAN be at Odds with freedom. But it doesn't have to be. It's very often lawyers who champion the rights of people, and help with good governance to create zoning laws, and provide accountability for environmental impact.
It's easy to feel lost in a complex system. The Legalise, (or language of the courts), is not always accessible. ...But there are the avenues for restitution, class action lawsuits, and many other vehicles that protect the common man.
Perhaps people would feel less overwhelmed by "the system" if some aspects of law and economics were taught in highschool. ...It seems silly not to. ...If you're going to have a capitalist system that can royally screw the common man, (send his job half way around the world) at least give him a decent education about it.
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Post by ulvesang on Dec 18, 2004 23:57:24 GMT -5
The problem with capitalism, as the term has been pinned by America, is that there will forever be a battle between each side to gain profit and power from the other. Corporations are forever evolving to screw people over even more, and people must forever learn to fight back. I'm not sure of anything anymore, because the lies and deciet have overlapped each other so much. For all I know Islam, Israel, the EU, USA, and everything else causing conflict in this world was engineered just to make someone richer.
For all I know, my hatred of the US could be engineered-brainwashing to hide me from the truth that the EU is the real enemy, or that maybe EVERYONE is the enemy.
I'm tired of one-upping the system... even honest people have to learn to lie just to survive. Inherently communism is sharing, while capitalism is fighting to see who deserves the goods most. Maybe the ones who GIVE AWAY the goods are actually the ones most deserving? Maybe in this world economy, the poorest people are the ones most fit to be rich?
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Post by ulvesang on Dec 19, 2004 0:10:15 GMT -5
And instead of courts, maybe we should work on making people good and honest in the first place rather than figure out myraid and ever-"improved" ways of punishing them. The US is VERY good at punishing people, but this is actually causing MORE people to be punished, not less. Strange that in the "softest" countries, there's actually the lowest levels of crime, corruption, and dishonesty.
It's also nice to add that once Norway started privatizing its economy, and Americanizing itself, and also getting very rich off of its oil, then the corporate scandals, crime, and difference between the poor and the rich all increased dramatically. In Scandinavia there was very little recognition of "rich people" vs. "poor people" until Norway. It's a shame: Norwegians tend to be funner than most because they're a little livelier in association with their nationalism. I DID like it better than Sweden until they started gorging themselves with money. Only place in Europe I've ever seen Dodge Rams or H2s. Once the feast starts, you get fatter, but then you must consume more to keep your fat self from feeling hungry.
I'll cry the day the average Norwegian sees a V8 engine, automatic gearbox, or onboard TV as a necessity in their "necessary" automobile.
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Post by LibLabDog on Dec 19, 2004 0:28:52 GMT -5
The problem with capitalism, as the term has been pinned by America, is that there will forever be a battle between each side to gain profit and power from the other. Corporations are forever evolving to screw people over even more, and people must forever learn to fight back. I'm not sure of anything anymore, because the lies and deciet have overlapped each other so much. For all I know Islam, Israel, the EU, USA, and everything else causing conflict in this world was engineered just to make someone richer. For all I know, my hatred of the US could be engineered-brainwashing to hide me from the truth that the EU is the real enemy, or that maybe EVERYONE is the enemy. I'm tired of one-upping the system... even honest people have to learn to lie just to survive. Inherently communism is sharing, while capitalism is fighting to see who deserves the goods most. Maybe the ones who GIVE AWAY the goods are actually the ones most deserving? Maybe in this world economy, the poorest people are the ones most fit to be rich? Sometimes there's more honesty in Selfishness. ...To Russians, I like to explain that the United States is greedy, but honest. Communism, with it's dogmatic altruism, DEMANDS everything be phrased in unselfish pro-proletarian bullshit doublespeak. ...It is in those environments that Liars thrive. There will always be a certain segment of the population that will lie like used car salesmen. ...Nothing can be done to stop this. People are born liars. ...But a society should be structured in such a way, that lying produces less financial rewards.
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Post by LibLabDog on Dec 19, 2004 0:30:02 GMT -5
I'll cry the day the average Norwegian sees a V8 engine, automatic gearbox, or onboard TV as a necessity in their "necessary" automobile. ...Yeah me too. I kind of liked keeping them impoverished. ...That way I could pluck one of them up pretty easily to be my wife.
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Post by ulvesang on Dec 19, 2004 0:49:02 GMT -5
Poverty is a terrible thing. But acting rich, arrogant, and gluttonous is worse. Why can't humans become rich and affluent, but still live humbly, respecting one another and the environment? Realizing we're all people? People should use "just enough." I don't need a pickup truck with a 6.0L engine and 4WD, so I don't own one. And the saddest thing, like I wrote before, is that slowly, what once was a luxury is now a necessity. Having an automatic gearbox was once a fun little bit of "extra something" in a car. Now, no one in America even knows how to drive a manual. In fact, with my host family I have an '86 Honda Accord 5-speed, and it acts almost like a perfect security system, because no one wants to drive it, or even knows how! When it comes to in spirit, I know from experience that the Czechs are some of the richest people on earth, even though in material goods they may be seen as "poor." And you may not have such a bad time finding a Norwegian wife, because a lot of them still love the US anyway. But be careful: when it comes to dating, you're reaching into the highest class in the world. An American with a Norwegian is like the equivalent of a peasant trying to swoon a queen.... but it's good fun anyway ;D
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Post by murphee on Dec 19, 2004 1:12:10 GMT -5
I am an American whose two cars have manual transmissions. ;D One is a gas/electric hybrid that gets 70 mpg on the freeway.
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Post by LibLabDog on Dec 19, 2004 1:39:57 GMT -5
Poverty is a terrible thing. But acting rich, arrogant, and gluttonous is worse. Why can't humans become rich and affluent, but still live humbly, respecting one another and the environment? Realizing we're all people? People should use "just enough." I don't need a pickup truck with a 6.0L engine and 4WD, so I don't own one. Yeah, the arrogance is a bad thing. Nothing worse then a rich person who see's their wealth as an affirmation of their self-importance. (Basically most Republicans.) And I dont' support capitalism in a way that caters to Wealth ownership. ...I support capitalism that supports wealth acquisition. What many Europeans don't see about Bush, is that he proposes all kinds of weird laws that would make inheritance tax non-existant. ...We actually like him for his Foreign Policy. ...But he does all kinds of things that support the Rich staying Rich, and everyone else having a hard time getting Rich. As for material goods being available, overwhelmingly, I think that's a good thing, as long as environmental impact is taken into consideration. ...What's wrong with having a pickup truck with a 6.0L engine and 4WD, if that's what you want? ...And it's true, that some of the Lexus' SUV coming out will have some of the best gas milleage around.
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