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Post by Platypus on Jun 21, 2005 10:07:45 GMT -5
East Anglia is a rural and quiet place, nothing happens much as you say, In the middle ages that area was marshy and water-soaked. It probably didn't interest much the invading Anglo Saxons that moved elsewhere. Lake Garda is very popular for Germans and Brits altogether. Lombards and Venetians sometimes joke on who shares the prettiest side of the lake.
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Post by bert on Jun 21, 2005 10:13:43 GMT -5
bert, get someone to proofread your English.................................I surely will . But keep in mind that I' m writing not at the same way of one that has lived in England 10 years as you say , and also I don' t use any dictionary when I write because I want to have more speed . My English is just learnt at school and also a bit forgotten . But if you want to measure yourself against me in math or phisics , always at your disposition , Mr I have seen all the world in internet . The english boys and girls were here just on vacation ( excuse me if possibly the preposition is wrong Mr Ten years in England ) , so please read more carefully what I write . With regards to the fisical common characteristics of people from Naples or all around there , they can' t be taught to me by you . I recognize them by a whole complex of features that makes me establish they are from there . Their type of hair for example , not only the colour , plus another set of things that are different and look different . With regards to Latin , I know it , because I studied it and I could even translate that article by Paolus Diaconus . But I' m sure it would be useless and I' m not going to waste my time . Surnames are worth nothing to you because it is normal that people change their names without intermarry . So if a surname is of clearly German origin , what does this mean ? Nothing to you . You are a scientist , and what a scientist , the one and only on Earth so experienced with genes . Perhaps are you the one who discovered their structure ? I suspect the answer is yes .
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Post by bert on Jun 22, 2005 5:43:44 GMT -5
Lake Garda!!! Sounds like you live in a nice place Bert. your a wannabe Celtic/Lombard, but I'm gonna back u up, since apparently there are indeed, especially in Lombardy, but also in Tuscany many nordic looking individuals...........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................More than a wannabe Celtic/German I would like to be your psychiatrist to try to understand what is wrong with your brain . Did you find just one line in which I affirm that blond is better ? If you put in front of me ten girls , 9 of which blond and just one brunette , without any doubt I choose the brunette one . So , just think how silly your sentences are . Anything written by me here , has to be intended just as a contribute to knowledge about a country that perhaps I know better than you , living here . You demonstrate how poor your knowledge about this argument is , also referring nordic looking guys just in Lombardy and Tuscany . The major amount of them , as every Italian well know , are in Friuli , Veneto , Trentino . And to tell the truth from this point of view , language apart , Verona although situated in Veneto is more similar to Lombardy than to the remaining cities of Veneto , where blondism is stronger . Not that those three regions have to be considered ''blond lands'' with predominating blond looking people , but surely there' s a remaining blondism stronger than elsewhere in Italy , after all the mixtures you may think to . The city of my father is Vicenza . In that city pinky skinned girls are not uncommon , and my father too has this type of skin . All this just for knowledge of those that pretend that a country that is 1.000 km long from north to south may be a one omogeneus thing from the Alps to Calabria , and each Calabrian and Venetic look the same because they have Italian written on their passports . Now please post me some photos of very dark Venetics and then tell me that with their Calabrian surnames they are Venetics instead of immigrants . I' m waiting for this , but I won' t reply . My time is over as well as my patience .
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Post by Platypus on Jun 23, 2005 7:53:31 GMT -5
If you put in front of me ten girls , 9 of which blond and just one brunette , without any doubt I choose the brunette one . Is that a fantasy of yours Bert ;D You must have got confused a bit, I don't care much about blondism, is an outdated issue, I am more interested in morphology and the repetition of these morphological traits within a group..could that be a family or an entire nation. Maybe you should chill out a bit..I dunno do some latin translations instead
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Post by courtjester on Jun 23, 2005 19:17:26 GMT -5
berts rather interesting comment on Garabadi is makes him rather suspect, not that I really care about Italian nationlism.
Trust me, this person isn't half as intelligent as claims to be.
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Post by bert on Jun 24, 2005 6:42:39 GMT -5
...............words are violence , break the silence ............. ( by depeche mode ) . Someones like me break it sofly , others like you criminally . P.S. Half the intelligenge I claim to have could be a too large number with respect to yours , given that perhaps we are as distant as a large number of orders of greatness. And go on not caring about Italian nationalism , I don' t care about Italy too as I' m Venetic . And don' t wait for further answers . In just one way I could demonstrate to be not very intelligent : going on answering to you .
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Post by osservatore on Sept 26, 2005 4:06:12 GMT -5
Bert
I'm from Italy too, don't try to fool me. I perfectly know whom are you voting for... but doesn't bother me.
NOBODY in Italy could tell where another italian is from. You'll find every kind of features everywhere, form nordic looking sicilians (and neapolitans, like the two guys I met yesterday... just to stop the old think about blonde sicilians as being descendant of Normands, cause you know, no Normans in naples...) to very mediterranean looking northeners (like my father).
So if you want to be a kelt or a german or everything but an italian, that's your problem.
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Post by obert on Sept 26, 2005 13:02:35 GMT -5
Hi this is Obert , previously Bert . Dear ''OSSERVATORE'' ( in English ''observer'' ) , I can argue from what you write that you are 12 y.o. and given that I' m an adult I can' t waste much time with you . Just two or three little things . Being an adult , like every adult , I' m satisfied to be in my skin ( casually pale , but not for this reason better or worst than the one of anyone else ) . But , please go to tell that NO-ONE in italy can distinguish a northern guy from a southern one to your mother and your sister , and avoid to break the balls of every adult living in VENETO and FRIULI and TRENTINO ALTO ADIGE etc. ( please notice that I' m using a minor carachter for italy and this because not of your southern skin - your mother is southern dear friend if you point out that your father is northern - but because of your southern mentality and personality that could signify nothing if you were under another flag , but unfortunately you are under our same flag ) . If you know the meaning of the term ''average'' and I am sure you don' t know it , on average means that it is possible to find out blond neapolitaners or calabrians or sicilians , BUT ''NORMALLY'' they have a darker complexion , waved or curly hair , far less tendency to baldness ( yes dear sir did you notice it ? It' s a trait of mediterranean peoples having less baldness ) etc. So , if you didn' t understand , please repeat ten thousand times ....curly,curly,curly ......or waved,waved,waved . When you have finished , please repeat another ten thousand times ...........darker,darker,darker . Should they have other features I couldn' t distinguish them so well . ON AVERAGE , SIR . There's one of you living in front of me . I believe that if you cancel the word ''italian'' on his passport and write on it '' moroccan'' , no one will realize he ' s not a moroccan . With regards to the Celtic or German or whatever definition you like , please go to break the balls of another calabrian like you . I am VENETIC ( please repeat this term one billion times ) and happy and proud to be it ( please go to see who stopped the Turkish invasion of Europe : the Venetians who sent to the fishes the 60% of the Turkish fleet by themselves alone in the battle of Lepanto - the Turkish fleet was till then unbeated ) and in no way I like those you mention more than others , even though I fully respect what they have been able to produce - such guys as Newton , Einstein , Lagrange, etc . BUT , if one has to understand the differences between NORTH and south or center of italy , dear SIR , one has to consider history , the different history of DIFFERENT PEOPLES who settled in the peninsula . Marsala , in sicily , dear SIR , comes from MARS-ALLAH . A lot of sicilian surnames share the same arabian origin as well as your well known '' Baciamo le mani '' ( Let' s kiss your hands ) , your way to show deference . Make a search in internet and you will find everything I am saying . Then explain to this Celtoid ( excuse me Sir but if the French have a gaul on the shirts of their national teams , why Northern italy shouldn' t have it given that we share the same history and look the same at least in the opinion of their President that reaching Venice told he didn' t realize to be in italy ?) why in our dialect we have words completely different from italian like '' trinkar''( have I to say it's a germanism from the Langbarden ? ) instead of '' bere '' ( to drink for the English who are reading ) . Or ''sbregar'' ( celticism) instead of ''tagliare'' ( to cut ) . And ten thousand billion others . This thing is often pointed out by a southern living here who is used to say that our dialect is strange as it is full of words that are in his own opinion completely different . Reality is that here the ancient Romans mixed together with Kelts ( Ager Gallicus , the Romans called the whole north part of the peninsula despite of the fact that the north eastern part could have spoken a language that was not originally Celtic even though the people of the north eastern part had clearly a central European origin both for their descripted fisical aspect and because of the fact that they introduced the '' urn fields culture'' arriving here ) . BUT , the problem , dear SIR , is not your look , in which I am NOT INTERESTED ( do you understand what interested means ? ) , but what you are . Do you see how many problems some middle easterns create when they settle abroad into the societies that receive them ? You are the same thing . At the origin of this there is the common fact that you are unable to adapt yourselves to what is different from you and always pretend who is receiving you to adapt themselves to you . Dear Sir , 85% of any crimes here have southern hands . Your consideration of woman as a property , is typical and there' s a lot of women killed by the husbands they leave. All southerns obviously . And despite of the fact that these WOOOOOONDERRRRRfUUUUUUUULLL guys when try to speak italian , need most of times an instant translater ( most of them say ''idaliano'' instead of ''italiano'' for example ) , they all are well placed into statal jobs that are gained by fraudolent examinations 99% of times , and where they ''work'' so hard obviously . Every evening on tv you can hear of someone killed by their local criminal organizations that control their territory as well as local politics . Does anyone know the meaning of nepotism and clientelism ? Well , go there , you will understand it immediately . Must I go on ? A last thing : someone told of the results of that mathematical examination which saw the Finnish at the top . It has been reported also by italian tv ( scientifical and ''politically'' correct program called '' Quark'' ) . Well , italians were 31st . On a regional basis , Northerns were 9th , ane southerns well under 31st place . So ''ON AVERAGE'' , 31st . ''ON AVERAGE '' , mister scientist '' Observer'' . On a more restricted scale , the guys from TRENTINO ALTO ADIGE were 1st . TRENTINO ALTO ADIGE is a bilingual region , italian-German and so are the guys , half and half . But 100 kilometers below , doesn' t mean we are different ( at least mentally ) . They simply have built their own school as they liked having they , large autonomies that we haven't got . But we will have the largest one , be sure of that .
PS. , don' t wait for other answers , it's just casuality if I read your post as lately I don' t follow this forum . But enjoy the same the answer I gave you given that usually I am more rude with the ball-breakers
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Post by osservatore on Sept 27, 2005 10:17:22 GMT -5
Listen one thing, dear Bert:
instead of jumping in the middle of the discussion in hurry to wave your party's flag, you should have noticed something: nobody ever said Italy, unlike every other country in the world, has to be completely uniform, nor, IMO, anybody in this forum ever expressed this opinion.
But you preferred to create a "straw man argument": you imagined a stupid adversary negating long and complex italian history... while I simply pointed out how is impossible to determine someone's provenience in Italy basing on aspect.
I'd like also to point out that you, conventiently, changed your point of view: you began saying you can tell who is from south by his aspect (maybe this is true in Veneto, for sure not where I'm living): which implies that you'll mistake my shorty, dark, curly and armenoid father for a sicilian, while he's from the provnice of Parma (and Piacenza); and my pale, redhead, alpinid mother (which is from Campania) for some "northener" woman.- ,and so my dark, curly friend from venezia (from an old venetian family...) for sure was a sicilian to you-
but then conveniently you ended up in latest posts saying that when you speak about physical characteristic you are speaking "on average terms".
Which is simply what I mean: you can't tell someone provenienece in Italy looking at his physical aspect. At least not here.
Don't have idea of what situation is like in Veneto or Friuli (my short, brunet grilfriend is from Vicenza) but i remeber a long discussion with a girl from Friuli (no accent) who asked me "Where I'm from?" My answer (she was a curly brunet, not very tall, black eyes): "Er... Sicily?" her reaction: "What?? How could you mistake me for a sicilian, don't you see I'm nordic?"
But even "on average terms", and looking only to people of of northern origins, you're going to find very few "milky" people where I'm living.
(I live in Parma and sometimes in Rome, and didn't see significant differmneces in physical aspects, except maybe romans are more often "shorts"- but it just a slight impression).
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Post by Marobud on Sept 27, 2005 16:32:19 GMT -5
Italians look somewhat very familiar, almost Czech to me - other mediterranean do not. From Czech point of view, they are familiar, nice people. Perhaps Celtic - Langobard - Imperium Romanum heritage. Regarding your emotional discussion: this Italian woman lives in very north of Italy, in Alps, at lakes region. She hikes Alps every weekend. Her family originates from Padova - it's in north too, Langobardia (Lombardia), I think: Notice her very Italian nose - nice!
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Post by obert on Sept 28, 2005 5:33:35 GMT -5
Very last post . Let's keep it simple . Alessandro Del Piero is an average northern italian . gwiazdyfootballu.w.interia.pl/alex%20del%20piero.htmlFilippo Magnini is an average southern italian . www.filippomagninifanclub.it/I didn' t even know of his existance , but seeing him winning the gold medal in Montreal , it was clear to me he was from the south part of italy . He looks Greek to me . And also largely represented in southern italy ( really he is from the central region of Marche , which is strictly linked by language and people to the southern part of the country ) . No one here where I live who is autoctonous like I am , looks like him . Last consideration : Gianluca Pessotto www.gossipnews.it/moda/baggage/11.shtmlor Federica Pellegrini ( Venetian ) www.federicapellegrini.com/it/index.phpare both from the north eastern part . They do not represent the average here , but they' re not uncommon here while very uncommon in the south part . Pessotto , not just because he is (...or better was..... becasue of his starting baldness ) blond , blue eyed , may be taken for a German to me ( and I see lots of them every year ) , but because of his face too ( maybe a reminescence of some Langbard Duke ? ) . I accept also that someone says he's dinaric or whatever he likes him to be as democracy requires that . But my own opinion is different . P.S. ''Observer'' , nothing against you personally . Don' t take the sarcastic tone of my previous message addressed personally to you . It was not my will .
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Post by osservatore on Sept 28, 2005 5:36:20 GMT -5
Obert
I have nothing agaisnt you as well. Nor against your legitime political opinions. I only pointed out I believed you somehow misunderstood my posting.
Take care!
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Post by osservatore on Sept 28, 2005 5:38:35 GMT -5
Ops, I forgot one thing:
maybe things are really different were you're living. Here where I live we are all a lot more "mixed" (even in historical terms) so things aren't so clear here. And this explicates our different perceptions.
Ciao!
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Post by Marobud on Sept 28, 2005 6:45:23 GMT -5
Always when I travel through Italia, I am surprised by diversity of human types. When I travel from my country to Italia across Austria, it is very visible. Czechs are a bit mixed population, then I travel through Austria with almost uniform population, then I cross Italian border, and immediatelly: so many different people, tall, small, thin, very thick, many, many very dark (compared to central Europe), but also quite many Central European semi-blondes. I always feel like in movie from Fellini - so many different types - honestly - i feel as if in some sort of panopticum (sorry for this word, I just want to express the diversity) - tall dark man with very black hair about 195cm tall, then very small blonde lady - she must be about 150cm! Undoubtly it is a result of Imperium Romanum attracting people from whole Europe and from whole Mediterraneum. By the way, Federica Pellegrini is quite typical Czech or Slovak. But, well, Langobards passed through my country too, they lasted here for at least 2 centuries.
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Post by nockwasright on Sept 28, 2005 9:51:19 GMT -5
Always when I travel through Italia, I am surprised by diversity of human types. When I travel from my country to Italia across Austria, it is very visible. Czechs are a bit mixed population, then I travel through Austria with almost uniform population, then I cross Italian border, and immediatelly: so many different people, tall, small, thin, very thick, many, many very dark (compared to central Europe), but also quite many Central European semi-blondes. I always feel like in movie from Fellini - so many different types - honestly - i feel as if in some sort of panopticum (sorry for this word, I just want to express the diversity) - tall dark man with very black hair about 195cm tall, then very small blonde lady - she must be about 150cm! You are a good observer, I also think the diversity of phenotypes in Italy is atonishing. However, bert is quite right that the average varies a lot from north to south. Actually there are various lines of change, also from west to east, and regions which retained some particular identity. But the most evident and important cline, both phenotypically and culturally is North/South. *Edit: Padova is in Veneto, East of Lombardia. On average Veneti are taller, fairer and more dinaric than Lombardi
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