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Post by hs on Jun 19, 2005 17:20:15 GMT -5
a quote on the Lombards (people who ruled Italia after Roman downfall for some centuries, just as the Anglo Saxons did in England): "Septemtrionalis plaga quanto magis ab aestu solis remota est et nivali frigore gelida, tanto salubrior corporibus hominum et propagandis est gentibus coaptata; sicut econtra omnis meridiana regio, quo solis est fervori vicinior, eo semper morbis habundat et educandis minus est apta mortalibus. Unde fit, ut tantae populorum multitudines arctoo sub axe oriantur, ut non inmerito universa illa regio Tanai tenus usque ad occiduum, licet et propriis loca in ea singula nuncupentur nominibus, generali tamen vocabulo Germania vocitetur; quamvis et duas ultra Rhenum provincias Romani, cum ea loca occupassent, superiorem inferioremque Germaniam dixerint. Ab hac ergo populosa Germania saepe innumerabiles captivorum turmae abductae meridianis populis pretio distrahuntur. Multae quoque ex ea, pro eo quod tantos mortalium germinat, quantos alere vix sufficit, saepe gentes egressae sunt, quae nihilominus et partes Asiae, sed maxime sibi contiguam Europam afflixerunt. Testantur hoc ubique urbes erutae per totam Illyricum Galliamque, sed maxime miserae Italiae, quae paene omnium illarum est gentium experta saevitiam. Gothi siquidem Wandalique, Rugi, Heruli atque Turcilingi, necnon etiam et aliae feroces et barbarae nationes e Germania prodierunt. Pari etiam modo et Winilorum, hoc est Langobardorum, gens, quae postea in Italia feliciter regnavit, a Germanorum populis originem ducens, licet et aliae causae egressionis eorum asseverentur, ab insula quae Scadinavia dicitur adventavit". Historia Langobardorum, by Paulus Diaconus Take notice of the last sentence. It says: "Ab insula quae Scadinavia dicitur adventavit". That sounds like a load of cocky shit. Scandinavia is not an island. That man was rather dumb and should have stuck to his praying for his soul. Yes, the frigid North is very healthy and yes they did propagate many nations. Yes, what a lot of drivel. Post that shite on Stormfront. Yes, that monk was a nordicist. He made it up. He wanted to make Italians nords. Lombards didnt come from Scandinavia. Maybe they came from Africa, or Iran, or, more precisely, an island (Sri Lanka, Australia or Japan?). Yes, his work was a piece of 'shite'. Bedes work on the Anglo Saxons was also 'shite'. And the Anglo Saxon Beowulf tale (which takes place in Scandinavia) was also a piece of 'shite', a piece of Nordic propaganda.
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Post by Trog on Jun 19, 2005 17:28:02 GMT -5
That sounds like a load of cocky shit. Scandinavia is not an island. That man was rather dumb and should have stuck to his praying for his soul. Yes, the frigid North is very healthy and yes they did propagate many nations. Yes, what a lot of drivel. Post that shite on Stormfront. Too bad, you cant even read. Yes, that monk was a nordicist. He made it up. He wanted to make Italians nords. Lombards didnt come from Scandinavia. Maybe they came from Africa, or Iran, or, more precisely, an island (Sri Lanka, Australia or Japan?). Yes, his work was a piece of 'shite'. Bedes work on the Anglo Saxons was also 'shite'. And the Anglo Saxon Beowulf tale (which takes place in Scandinavia) was also a piece of 'shite', a piece of Nordic propaganda. Poncho is a strange fellow; sometimes what he says puts everything into a certain perspective, at other times he's unwilling to ponder worthwhile sources if they oppose what he personally thinks. Poncho will dismiss Bede and Beowulf's volumes, but he will also do the same with any historical document , be they Anglo-Saxon Chronicles, Viking Sagas, even the classics because he said in the past that they're 90% contrived. I however enjoy material like this, so keep posting it. Just because a historian may have confused land, it does not discredit them. It's easier to understand how they perceived the world prior to modern maps, satellite images and even before the discovery of America. Poncho it seems, has little appreciation of history and primary sources. However there are some of us who do appreciate them, if you can just provide a reference or link though, I like to have links to these for future reference.
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Post by hs on Jun 19, 2005 17:38:50 GMT -5
Too bad, you cant even read. Yes, that monk was a nordicist. He made it up. He wanted to make Italians nords. Lombards didnt come from Scandinavia. Maybe they came from Africa, or Iran, or, more precisely, an island (Sri Lanka, Australia or Japan?). Yes, his work was a piece of 'shite'. Bedes work on the Anglo Saxons was also 'shite'. And the Anglo Saxon Beowulf tale (which takes place in Scandinavia) was also a piece of 'shite', a piece of Nordic propaganda. Poncho is a strange fellow; sometimes what he says puts everything into a certain perspective, at other times he's unwilling to ponder worthwhile sources if they oppose what he personally thinks. Poncho will dismiss Bede and Beowulf's volumes, but he will also do the same with any historical document , be they Anglo-Saxon Chronicles, Viking Sagas, even the classics because he said in the past that they're 90% contrived. I however enjoy material like this, so keep posting it. Just because a historian may have confused land, it does not discredit them. It's easier to understand how they perceived the world prior to modern maps, satellite images and even before the discovery of America. Poncho it seems, has little appreciation of history and primary sources. However there are some of us who do appreciate them, if you can just provide a reference or link though, I like to have links to these for future reference. I agree with you Xenophobic: Paulus Diaconus had no sattelite images, and it seems reasonable to suppose, considering the time the monk lived (and given that odd contour of Scandinavia), that it was an island (I think Tacitus, in his famous Germania, said exact the same thing about Scandinavia). Here goes a link to the 'Historia Langobardorum': www.gmu.edu/departments/fld/CLASSICS/pauldeacon.hist.htmlI think youve already got Bedes works on British history as well as Beowulf.
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Post by hs on Jun 19, 2005 18:39:26 GMT -5
Paulus Diaconus' life: Paul the Deacon (c. 720 – 13 April 800), also known as Paulus Diaconus, Warnefridi and Cassinensis, (i.e. "of Monte Cassino"), was a Benedictine monk and historian of the Lombards. An ancestor named Leupichis entered Italy in the train of Alboin and received lands at or near Forum Julii (Friuli). During an invasion the Avars swept off the five sons of this warrior into Illyria, but one, his namesake, returned to Italy and restored the ruined fortunes of his house. The grandson of the younger Leupichis was Warnefrid, who by his wife Theodelinda became the father of Paulus. Born between 720 and 725 at Friuli in Italy to this noble Lombard family. Paul received an exceptionally good education, probably at the court of the Lombard king Rachis in Pavia, learning from a teacher named Flavian the rudiments of Greek. It is probable that he was secretary to the Lombard king Desiderius, the successor of Rachis; it is certain that this king's daughter Adelperga was his pupil. After Adelperga had married Arichis, duke of Benevento, Paulus at her request wrote his continuation of Eutropius. It is possible that he took refuge at Benevento when Pavia was taken by Charlemagne in 774, but it is much more likely that his residence there was anterior to this event by several years. Soon he entered a monastery on the lake of Como, and before 782 he had become an inmate of the great Benedictine house of Monte Cassino, where he made the acquaintance of Charlemagne. About 776 his brother Arichis had been carried as a prisoner to France, and when five years later the Frankish king visited Rome, Paul successfully wrote to him on behalf of the captive. His literary attainments attracted the notice of Charlemagne, and Paul became a potent factor in the Carolingian renaissance. In 787 he returned to Italy and to Monte Cassino, where he died on April 13 in one of the years between 794 and 800. His surname Diaconus, or Levita, shows that he took orders as a deacon; and some think he was a monk before the fall of the Lombard kingdom. The chief work of Paul is his Historia gentis Langobardorum. This incomplete history in six books was written after 787 and deals with the story of the Lombards from 568 to the death of King Liutprand in 747. The story is told from the point of view of a Lombard patriot and is especially valuable for the relations between the Franks and the Lombards. Paul used the document called the Origo gentis Langobardorum, the Liber pontificalis, the lost history of Secundus of Trent, and the lost annals of Benevento; he made a free use of Bede, Gregory of Tours and Isidore of Seville. In some respects he suggests a comparison with Jordanes, but in learning and literary honesty is greatly the superior of the Goth. Of the Historia there are about a hundred manuscripts extant. It was largely used by subsequent writers, was often continued, and was first printed in Paris in 1514. It has been translated into English, German, French and Italian, the English translation being by WD Foulke (Philadelphia, 1807), and the German by O Abel and R Jacobi (Leipzig, 1878). Among the editions of the Latin the best is that edited by L Bethmann and G Waitz, in the Monumenta Germaniae Historica. Scriptores rerum langobardicarum (Hanover, 1878). Cognate with this work is Paul's Historia romana, a continuation of the Breviarium of Eutropius. This was compiled between 766 and 771, at Benevento. The story runs that Paul advised Adelperga to read Eutropius. She did so, but complained that this heathen writer said nothing about ecclesiastical affairs and stopped with the accession of the emperor Valens in 364; consequently Paul interwove extracts from the Scriptures, from the ecclesiastical historians and from other sources with Eutropius, and added six books, thus bringing the history down to 553. This work has little value, although it was very popular during the middle ages. It has been edited by H Droysen and published in the Monumenta Germaniae Historica. Auctores antiguissimi, Bd. ii. (1879). Paul wrote at the request of Angilram, bishop of Metz (d. 791), a history of the bishops of Metz to 766, the first work of its kind north of the Alps. This Gesta episcoporum mettensium is published in Bd. ii. of the Monumenta Germaniae historica Scriptores, and has been translated into German (Leipzig, 1880). He also wrote many letters, verses and epitaphs, including those of Duke Arichis and of many members of the Carolingian family. Some of the letters are published with the Historia Langobardorum in the Monumenta; the poems and epitaphs edited by Ernst Dümmler will be found in the Poetae latini aevi carolini, Bd. i. (Berlin, 188f). Fresh material having come to light, a new edition of the poems (Die Geschichte des Paulus Diaconus) has been edited by Karl Neff (Munich, 1908). While in France Paulus was requested by Charlemagne to compile a collection of homilies. He executed this after his return to Monte Cassino, and it was largely used in the Frankish churches. A life of Pope Gregory the Great has also been attributed to him. www.free-definition.com/Paul-the-Deacon.html
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Post by buddyrydell on Jun 19, 2005 18:50:05 GMT -5
Bottom line gents, northern and southern Italians really aren't as different as people would like to make them out to be. Secondly, mulattos simply don't exist in southern Italy/Sicily. Don't get me wrong either, I think many mulattas are gorgeous, only they simply don't occur anywhere in Italy (contrary to what some Americans or Nordicists may think). I will gladly post pictures of several of my Sicilian relatives if anybody has any doubts.
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Post by Ponto Hardbottle on Jun 20, 2005 2:11:59 GMT -5
That sounds like a load of cocky shit. Scandinavia is not an island. That man was rather dumb and should have stuck to his praying for his soul. Yes, the frigid North is very healthy and yes they did propagate many nations. Yes, what a lot of drivel. Post that shite on Stormfront. Too bad, you cant even read. Yes, that monk was a nordicist. He made it up. He wanted to make Italians nords. Lombards didnt come from Scandinavia. Maybe they came from Africa, or Iran, or, more precisely, an island (Sri Lanka, Australia or Japan?). Yes, his work was a piece of 'shite'. Bedes work on the Anglo Saxons was also 'shite'. And the Anglo Saxon Beowulf tale (which takes place in Scandinavia) was also a piece of 'shite', a piece of Nordic propaganda. The Lombards were south Germans. The Germans and Scandinavians are totally different people and speak different Germanic languages. English is Germanic and by your logic Scandinavian. I can read, I know shite when I see it. And yes, that shite was posted on Stormfront. What would some idiotic religious know about Scandinavia? A lot of bullshit legends. The Anglo-Saxons were not Scandinavians. They were Germans. Do you always confuss ethnic groups, languages and cultures so easily. The Germans are not Scandinavians and never were. Speaking Germanic languages does not imply racial affinity. You are just upset I unmasked you silly game. Thinking posting some Latin bullshit so no-one will read it. I can read all about the religious' background I don't need your efforts. The view of some cleric of so long ago is not worth anything except as history. It has no knowledge value. That man was no Da Vinci or Gallilleo, just some silly superstitious antique. You can agree with Xeno as much as you like. She is as pig brained as you especially her idiotic idea of what Mediterranid means or that the people in Britain can be classified as NW European, Nordish, what a laugh. The British are one of the most mongrelised people in Europe, if Britain is Europe, I have my doubts especially after living in England for ten years. This board gets them all, Xeno, hs, is that horse shit?, Charlie Bass, shitforbrains who thinks she is Nordid, yeah lady, keep taking the pills, sandnigga. I reckon I have learnt more about psychopathology and its variants on this board than human biodiversity.
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Post by Crimson Guard on Jun 20, 2005 2:50:08 GMT -5
<<psychopathology and its variants on this board than human biodiversity. >>
Yep,BioInsanity more like it! Theirs alot of moronic people who say and even believe half the Bullshit they spat...
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Post by bert on Jun 20, 2005 5:59:57 GMT -5
Theirs alot of moronic people who say and even believe half the Bullshit they spat.....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................Perhaps you are one of them ? Thanks crimson for your contribute to knowledge and human intelligence . Don' t waste your time here , Stephen Hawkings might need your help .
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Post by hs on Jun 20, 2005 6:23:20 GMT -5
Too bad, you cant even read. Yes, that monk was a nordicist. He made it up. He wanted to make Italians nords. Lombards didnt come from Scandinavia. Maybe they came from Africa, or Iran, or, more precisely, an island (Sri Lanka, Australia or Japan?). Yes, his work was a piece of 'shite'. Bedes work on the Anglo Saxons was also 'shite'. And the Anglo Saxon Beowulf tale (which takes place in Scandinavia) was also a piece of 'shite', a piece of Nordic propaganda. The Lombards were south Germans. The Germans and Scandinavians are totally different people and speak different Germanic languages. English is Germanic and by your logic Scandinavian. I can read, I know shite when I see it. And yes, that shite was posted on Stormfront. What would some idiotic religious know about Scandinavia? A lot of bullshit legends. The Anglo-Saxons were not Scandinavians. They were Germans. Do you always confuss ethnic groups, languages and cultures so easily. The Germans are not Scandinavians and never were. Speaking Germanic languages does not imply racial affinity. You are just upset I unmasked you silly game. Thinking posting some Latin bullshit so no-one will read it. I can read all about the religious' background I don't need your efforts. The view of some cleric of so long ago is not worth anything except as history. It has no knowledge value. That man was no Da Vinci or Gallilleo, just some silly superstitious antique. You can agree with Xeno as much as you like. She is as pig brained as you especially her idiotic idea of what Mediterranid means or that the people in Britain can be classified as NW European, Nordish, what a laugh. The British are one of the most mongrelised people in Europe, if Britain is Europe, I have my doubts especially after living in England for ten years. This board gets them all, Xeno, hs, is that horse shit?, Charlie Bass, shitforbrains who thinks she is Nordid, yeah lady, keep taking the pills, sandnigga. I reckon I have learnt more about psychopathology and its variants on this board than human biodiversity. Paulus Diaconus was a lombard himself. Youre always so certain about things that it amazes me. Youre right, in spite of all accounts, even registered accounts by Longobards themselves, the Longobards were not Scandinavians, they were alpine Bavarians, they were South Germans. They were Volkswagen workers, from Wolfsburg. Ok. I find it paradoxical that it is no problem to mention about the Southern Magna Grecia, to talk about the others folks of the Italian peninsula, etc. But when one says anything about the Longobards (even if it was a mere quote), or alike, some people simply get mad about it (even if it was a classical quote!)... the Lombards ruled a significant part of Italy from 500 to 800, roughly speaking. If one remembers how much time the Spaniards and English ruled in the American Continent (and how much theyve changed in this continent, culturally and ethnically)... then one realizes those Barbarians (said to be from Scandinavia) also left their print in Italy.
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Post by hs on Jun 20, 2005 7:12:52 GMT -5
"The Lombards, or Langobards, were a Germanic tribe that began in southern Sweden and worked their way down into Italy. They became Italians in the process and gave their name to the northern Italian region of Lombardia. This movement from Sweden to Italy was gradual: it took four centuries. When the Lombards descended on Italy , they had to deal with several earlier waves of German invaders (particularly the Goths) as well as the resurgent Eastern Romans (who were a power in Italy into the 8th century). However, twenty years after the last of the Eastern Romans were expelled from Italy (751 AD.), the Lombards were stomped by the better organized Franks. This was, technically, the end of the Lombard kingdom in Italy. But unlike earlier Germans, they had not maintained the ancient Roman forms of government during their domination of the Peninsula, nor did the Lombard duchies which survived the Frankish onslaught in the South. The political landscape in Italy was given a German overlay by the Lombards, where eventually they spoke Italian and became Catholic. Basically, Italy became another Germanic area." campus.northpark.edu/history/WebChron/WestEurope/Lombards.html
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Post by hs on Jun 20, 2005 7:25:33 GMT -5
The Lombards (Latin Langobardi, from which the alternative name Longobards found in older English texts), were a Germanic people originally from Scandinavia that entered the late Roman Empire. They were known to the Romans from as early as AD 98, when the historian Tacitus mentioned them in his Germania. Their own tradition describes how they left Scandinavia under leaders such as Ibor and settled in central Europe. They had initially settled in Pannonia by the Emperor Justinian as foederati. In 568 they invaded northern Italy under their king Alboin, but were unsuccessful at conquering any city with walls. They broke off sieges of most cities they tried to take and settled for what they could find in the countryside. They established a capital, Pavia. After the death of Alboin and his immediate successor, the Lombards failed to choose a king for more than 10 years, and the various regions were ruled by dukes. When they entered Italy, some Lombards remained pagan, and some were Arian Christians. Hence they did not enjoy good relations with the Catholic Church. Gradually, as they remained in Italy, they adopted Roman titles, names, and traditions, and converted to orthodoxy. The last Lombard to rule as king of the Lombards was Desiderius, who ruled until 774, when Charlemagne not only conquered the Lombard kingdom, but in an utterly novel decision took the title "King of the Lombards" as well. Before then the Germanic kingdoms had frequently conquered each other, but none had adopted the title of King of another people. Charlemagne took part of the Lombard territory to create the Papal States. The Lombardy region in Italy, which includes the cities of Bergamo and Milan, is a reminder of the presence of the Lombards. Much of our knowledge of the mythological and semi-mythological early history of the Lombard people comes from Paul the Deacon's History of the Lombards (Historia Langobardorum) written in the late 8th century. By the title of this work the name of Longobards was commonly turned into Langobards. According to the Lombards themselves, a legend documented by Paul the Deacon, their name was derived from a joke played on Odin (Godan) by his wife Frige (Frea). She told the Lombard women to tie their hair in front of their faces and when Odin saw them he asked about the longbeards. Then Frigg said that since Odin had named them longbeards, Langobards was to be their name. The name has also been tentatively considered as being derived from the name of a preferred weapon of the Lombards in war: the "long halberd" or long-bladed axe. However, neither of these possibilities is considered by scholars at this time to be plausible. The translation of Paul the Deacon's History of the Lombards (Historia Langobardorum) published in 1907 by W. D. Foulke mentions these as well as other possibilities, but his speculation in that respect is now thought to be based on highly tenuous etymological links. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards
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Post by bert on Jun 20, 2005 7:59:33 GMT -5
The whole northern italy was langobardia and tuscany as well . They extended their supremacy to part of centre and south too , even though I don' t remember the detailed chart . Not sicily anyway . Nowadays just one region is named Lombardy . Why ? Because if we name so the whole North of italy how to distinguish different dialects that anyway share 90 % of their terms ? To be true , they entered italy from the north eastern door in Friuli and there they left more , there and in Veneto . But the name has remained to the ancient region called Insubria ( from the gauls Insubri ) with capital Milan that means Mid land i.e. land that stays in the middle . So Mr Ponto and Mr Crimson , when you hear the English Midlands thinks about Medium landum or Mid land . I will also tell this to my ''moronic'' milky looking father and my ''moronic'' green eyed mother even though I don' t think they're much interested nor in this nor in being or not moronic , Mr Crimson . That's the difference between us and you Mr Crimson : we have nothing against what you call the moronics . Your ancestors took 2 000 0000 years to develop themselves and the result is you . Encouraging . P.s. hs , a last thing . I' m sure Ponto will have to say the Langobards were not Wolkswagen workers but Mercedes workers at Stuttgart . My congratulations to you anyway for your knowledge of this part of world .
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Post by hs on Jun 20, 2005 10:04:48 GMT -5
As I had said, Paulus Diaconus was a Lombard himself. He was not a nordicist monk who was concerned to pass as someone with Scandinavian origins. He was just telling the origins of his own people, according to what was said by his own people. He was not the first historian to refer to Scandinavia 'as island'. Ancient Geographical description of Scandinavia: "Jordanes referred to Ptolemy's fairly correct description of Scandia which was described as a great island shaped like a juniper leaf (i.e. long and not round) having bulging sides and which tapered down in the south at a long end. He also referred to Pomponius Mela's description of Codanonia (called Scatinavia by Pliny the Elder) which was located in the Codanian Gulf (probably Kattegat). This island was in front of the Vistula and that there was a great lake (probably Vänern) from which sprang the river Vagus (cf. Ván an old name for Göta älv). On the western and northern side it was surrounded by an enormous sea (the Atlantic), but in the east there was a land bridge (Lappland) which cut of the sea in the east forming the German Sea (the Baltic Sea). There were also many small islands (the Swedish and Finnish archipelagos) where wolves could pass when the sea was frozen. In winter the country was not only cruel to people but also to wild beasts. Due to the extreme cold there were no swarms of honey-making bees". en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ScandzaSee, both Pliny the Elder and Ptolomy had already called Scandinavia 'an island', though their description was roughly accurate. The same did Jordanes, the Goth historian, in the classic 'Origins and the deeds of the Goths' (see this link:http://www.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html). "Some claim that Scandza only referred to Scania, which must be due to not having read Jordanes, since the description covers all of the Scandinavian peninsula. Some scholars who refute that the Goths were from Scandinavia claim that Scandza was a mythical location. This is strikingly at odds with Jordanes' numerous correct descriptions and the fact that he identified it with Pliny the Elder's Scatinavia" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandza). Tacitus said the Lombards were one of the Suebi tribes. It should be noted, then, that the Romans called the Baltic Sea "Mare Suebicum". *-The fact is that the anthropological reality of Italy, just as anywhere else, is too complex to be simplified by saying all Italians are a bunch of med dinarics distributed equally all over the peninsula (as many here and there want to). -* Theres no bias here. Theres bias when people who are too used to reading stormfront or skadi, when confronted with historical and classical accounts, jump to conclusions and let their prejudices come out in the most bizarre hysterical ways. Theres bias when people are overtly concerned about their own corner (as some Sicilians and others), not with truth for itself. Im just curious to learn...
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Post by Ponto Hardbottle on Jun 20, 2005 10:18:33 GMT -5
So he was a Lombard. That doesn't mean he knows anything about Lombards. He probably didn't know who his grandparents were let alone some Germanic tribe he was allegedly attached to. I don't believe you or your references. Anyone can lump Germanic speakers with Scandinavia without any proof because that is where you Nordic obsessed people think all Germans come from. Sorry, Tacitus said long before some priestling that the Lombards came from the lower Elbe valley. People's traditions of their origins are often wrong, made up. The oldest writings on the Lombards do not mention Scandinavia. And if they came form there why do the Lombards think it was an island? Only a rabid Nordicist would care about the origin point of an extinct people who incidentally only left Germany because of the Huns even after they allied themselves with them and intermarried with them. I am sure the priestling did not mention the Hunnic association or the intermarriage with them. I would rather accept Tacitus over some fool centuries later. You Pannonists are really insane.
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Post by Ponto Hardbottle on Jun 20, 2005 10:25:07 GMT -5
I couldn't care less for any particular part of Europe. I happen to be Swiss but my family derives from NW Italy and I think the Lombard thing is overdone. The Lombards won't make Italians any Whiter. They are still predominantly Dinarid, Med and Alpinid combinations and on the dark side of European pigmentation. Look Berbers can claim genuine Scandinavian Germanic origin through the Vandals probably of more genuineness than any Italians can claim the Lombards.
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