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Post by kir on Apr 3, 2005 1:19:25 GMT -5
What I mean, is that M1 could have branched of some ancient Indian or Mongoloid sequence. If this isn’t the case, it would be a very cool idea, that M1 is Caucasoid. It would be the lone M Caucasoid sequence though. Hover keep in mind M sequences evolved in Asia 38,000 ybp before expanding to “West Eurasia”.
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Post by Dienekes on Apr 3, 2005 1:50:04 GMT -5
What I mean, is that M1 could have branched of some ancient Indian or Mongoloid sequence. Yes, but the great age of other clades of M mean that this happened tens of thousands of years ago, long before there were Mongoloids or Indians in the racial sense.
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Post by kir on Apr 3, 2005 2:29:17 GMT -5
What you say isn’t true for at time<18,000ybp. Populations carrying mongoloid haplogroups A, B, C, D arrived around 12,000<t<18000 ybp in the Americas and still retained their mongoloid physical features. I believe this to be the case with haplogroup M1, which migrated 12,000 ybp
Your statement is true for populations carrying M and N types 70,000 or so ago. Each race generally has their own M and N types.
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Post by Dienekes on Apr 3, 2005 3:14:23 GMT -5
What you say isn’t true for at time<18,000ybp. Populations carrying mongoloid haplogroups A, B, C, D arrived around 12,000<t<18000 ybp in the Americas and still retained their mongoloid physical features. I believe this to be the case with haplogroup M1, which migrated 12,000 ybp Your statement is true for populations carrying M and N types 70,000 or so ago. Each race generally has their own M and N types. Haplogroups A, B, C, D are however derived from haplogroup M, so they are younger than haplogroup M. Therefore, their date of migration gives us only a terminal date at which M must have crossed into the Americas, but it does not tell us when M or M1 originated. Also, I'm not sure what your source is for haplogroup M1's date, but whatever its date, it cannot be reasonably be considered Mongoloid, as none of the populations which carry it are Mongoloid, nor are there any Mongoloid prehistoric remains in any of the regions we are speaking of.
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Post by kir on Apr 3, 2005 4:07:41 GMT -5
Haplogroups A, B, C, D are however derived from haplogroup M, so they are younger than haplogroup M. Therefore, their date of migration gives us only a terminal date at which M must have crossed into the Americas, but it does not tell us when M or M1 originated. Also, I'm not sure what your source is for haplogroup M1's date, but whatever its date, it cannot be reasonably be considered Mongoloid, as none of the populations which carry it are Mongoloid, nor are there any Mongoloid prehistoric remains in any of the regions we are speaking of. That was not my point; my only point was that 18000 ybp serves as a proven upper bound for the division of the Eurasian races. So when M1 migrated back to Africa 12,000 ybp , then M1 had to be one of the tree races of Eurasia. Mongoloid, Caucasoid or Veddoid. Personally, I don’t now which one, perhaps you can rule some out. Source: www.mcdonald.cam.ac.uk/genetics/mtDNAworld/eleven.htmlYou seemed to have ruled out mongoloid, but then again; dienekes.blogspot.com/2004/09/racial-affinities-of-prehistoric-east.html
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Post by Dienekes on Apr 3, 2005 4:18:00 GMT -5
That was not my point; my only point was that 18000 ybp serves as a proven upper bound for the division of the Eurasian races. You assume that the people who migrated into the New World at that time were Mongoloid. However, the earliest skulls from the New World are not Mongoloid in form dienekes.blogspot.com/2004/09/did-first-americans-come-from-er.htmlIt cannot be pinned down to a single race, however parsimony dictates that we should not consider it Mongoloid, as it is not found in any Mongoloid populations According to Howells the prehistoric East Afrians had a non-African look, but he is clear that he does not ascribe them to any living race and finds them most similar to a whole bunch of different populations. They do not fit cleanly into the modern races.
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Post by kir on Apr 3, 2005 4:43:43 GMT -5
You assume that the people who migrated into the New World at that time were Mongoloid. However, the earliest skulls from the New World are not Mongoloid in form Well, a migration form the Bering Strait is the accepted theory, and there is a lot of evidence for it, however it’s not my theory and I just used it as a premise. Even If there was a separate migration to the Americas form Oceania, it doesn’t rule out a migration through the Bering Strait. What do you think about M1=Caucasoid or even M1=Atlantis. Lol don’t take me too serious on the second one though.
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Post by Dienekes on Apr 3, 2005 4:45:37 GMT -5
What do you think about M1=Caucasoid or even M1=Atlantis. Lol don’t take me too serious on the second one though. I don't know, but fortunately ancient DNA can be analyzed, and hopefully it will be detected in some ancient skeletal populations and give us more info about it.
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Post by kir on Apr 3, 2005 4:58:46 GMT -5
Anyway later, thanks for the talk. I hope they find some racial affinity with M1, up to now we can just speculate. At least we know now that it’s form Asia.
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Post by topdog on Apr 3, 2005 5:07:45 GMT -5
Anyway later, thanks for the talk. I hope they find some racial affinity with M1, up to now we can just speculate. At least we know now that it’s form Asia. Genes don't have any racial affiliation. The best example is the PN2 clade which includes Berbers, Nilotes, and East Africans, they genes genes belonging to the same clade, but they all look different.
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Post by Dienekes on Apr 3, 2005 5:49:56 GMT -5
Genes don't have any racial affiliation. The best example is the PN2 clade which includes Berbers, Nilotes, and East Africans, they genes genes belonging to the same clade, but they all look different. Incorrect, Y-haplogroups are strongly correlated with racial groups. The populations you refer to may belong to Y-haplogroup E, but they have completely different maternal structure. The Berbers are almost purely Caucasoid, while the other two groups have significant to almost complete Negroid maternal composition.
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Post by topdog on Apr 3, 2005 7:39:11 GMT -5
Incorrect, Y-haplogroups are strongly correlated with racial groups. East Africans and Berbers have E3b but look totally different whereas Tutsis have E3a and East Africans have E3b(Somalis) and look more similar to each other. Berbers have do have sub-Saharan mixture but in a north to south cline. East Africans and Nilotes do have predominate sub-Saharan ancestry, but it is not due to recent admixture from Bantu groups as you keep postulating.
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Post by mike2 on Apr 3, 2005 11:50:47 GMT -5
I agree, TopDog. The negroidness of the Nilotes and Aethiopids predates the Bantu expansion, which by textbook definitions started in 500 B.C. and ended in 1500 A.D. That's a relatively recent migration and the eastern African races were part of the negroid sphere way before 500 B.C., I would imagine.
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Post by SensoUnico on Apr 3, 2005 12:03:31 GMT -5
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Post by Dienekes on Apr 3, 2005 16:04:38 GMT -5
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