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Post by Anja on Jul 13, 2005 21:26:23 GMT -5
I posted this a long while ago, but since there are a lot of new folks around, I'd like to get some new responses on this interesting paper. Germanisation of the land between the Elbe-Saale and the Oder rivers Colonisation or assimilation ? by Roman Zaroff Conclusion: Contrary to common belief, a main factor in the process of germanisation of lands beyond the Elbe and Saale was not German colonisation, but rather slow germanisation of the Polabian Slavs.There is no hard evidence for mass Germanic migration into the region, except in Wagrien and Brandenburgia. [173] Nor could the economic re-structuring of the region could be attributed entirely to the migrants, although, the Germans were a driving force in those developments. At the same time there is evidence of Slavic nobility being fully accepted by the Germans, while the Slavic townsfolk participated in development of the cities.The Polabian Slavs were reported in many rural areas for centuries after the conquest.Some indirect evidence, like the survival of place and personal names, retention of serfdom in the east,also points to the germanization rather than migration. So, in the light of the above evidence, the main factor in germanization of the region east of the Elbe and Saale, was not a Germanic colonisation but long process of assimilation of local Slavic population.Taking into consideration the survival of Lusatian Sorbs, the process is still not completed.Hence, the modern German population has a substantial Slavic component.And in the case of the Lands that once formed East Germany, the population there is a Slavo-Germanic mixture, most likely with the Slavic elements being dominant [174] , a fact that probably many Germans would not wish to admit. Nevertheless, a modern German is not less German regardless of some of his ancestors beingSlavic. Neither would anysane person question the right of Germans to the territory east of Elbe and Saale where 98 percent of population feels they are German. read the whole thing at: luzicane.boom.ru/RZaroff.html
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Post by Polako on Jul 14, 2005 0:20:43 GMT -5
It seems from Y-chromosome markers that the migration of Germanic genes into the region was quite intense.
But yeah, Y-chromosomes tell us that a huge number of Slav lineages are still present in east Germany.
But I think that east Germans are even more Slavic on their maternal side. I would say that during the process of Germanization, more Slavic women than men would pass on their genes. That's the nature of colonization. Although I'm not sure how we can test that, as Slavic and Germanic mtDNA are extremely similar anyway.
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Post by Crimson Guard on Jul 14, 2005 0:46:07 GMT -5
<<So, in the light of the above evidence, the main factor in germanization of the region east of the Elbe and Saale, was not a Germanic colonisation but long process of assimilation of local Slavic population.Taking into consideration the survival of Lusatian Sorbs, the process is still not completed.Hence, the modern German population has a substantial Slavic component.And in the case of the Lands that once formed East Germany, the population there is a Slavo-Germanic mixture, most likely with the Slavic elements being dominant [174] , a fact that probably many Germans would not wish to admit.>>
I dont want to sound indelicate,but does the fact that wide spread mass rapings of German women that was commited by Russian Soldiers after WW2 have any bearing on this or Germany in general?
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Post by Polako on Jul 14, 2005 8:37:20 GMT -5
<<So, in the light of the above evidence, the main factor in germanization of the region east of the Elbe and Saale, was not a Germanic colonisation but long process of assimilation of local Slavic population.Taking into consideration the survival of Lusatian Sorbs, the process is still not completed.Hence, the modern German population has a substantial Slavic component.And in the case of the Lands that once formed East Germany, the population there is a Slavo-Germanic mixture, most likely with the Slavic elements being dominant [174] , a fact that probably many Germans would not wish to admit.>> I dont want to sound indelicate,but does the fact that wide spread mass rapings of German women that was commited by Russian Soldiers after WW2 have any bearing on this or Germany in general? Who knows what impact that had? In a recent book about the war in Germany, however, it was pointed out that Soviet soldiers originating in central Asia did a lot of the raping. In light of the many Slavic town names and surnames in eastern and north Germany, it would be safe to assume that most of the Slavic influence on that country is ancient.
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Post by henerte on Jul 14, 2005 9:02:17 GMT -5
It's a rather nature of fierce invasion that usually involves gendercide (extermination of men rather than women)
I doubt that russian rapings had any impact on the present population of Germany. I find it hard to believe that such children would have any chances of surviving and being accepted by family or community. Russians lost something like 15million soldiers during WWII so many of them in the last stages of the war were recruited from Central Asian populations - nevertheless, we have to remember that german propaganda used to exaggerate that fact, sort of - "Mongols are coming to rape our wives and daughters so we have to defend ourselves" - just to strenghten the resistance.
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Post by Polako on Jul 14, 2005 11:16:31 GMT -5
It's a rather nature of fierce invasion that usually involves gendercide (extermination of men rather than women) I doubt that russian rapings had any impact on the present population of Germany. I find it hard to believe that such children would have any chances of surviving and being accepted by family or community. Russians lost something like 15million soldiers during WWII so many of them in the last stages of the war were recruited from Central Asian populations - nevertheless, we have to remember that german propaganda used to exaggerate that fact, sort of - "Mongols are coming to rape our wives and daughters so we have to defend ourselves" - just to strenghten the resistance. There was a book published about these events a couple of years ago, and it claimed that it was the Central Asian soldiers who did a lot of it. This book was widely accepted in the academic circles, so who knows?
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Post by Anja on Jul 14, 2005 16:49:54 GMT -5
Hm, I never knew about these rapings, I'll have to look them up.
Anyhow, yes, town names and surnames in northeastern Germany do tell a lot. Once you cross over the Elbe, many town names immediately do not seem to be of the same etymology. The last speakers of the original Slavic language on the Isle of Rugen did not die until the 1800s. The Sorbs and the Kaszubs were able to hold on to their cultures more or less, but what happened all the people of the territories around them? Surely they did not disappear, and surely they were not all murdered, they were assimilated, and as I've seen from posts over on the genetics board, science proves this.
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Post by Anja on Jul 14, 2005 16:51:30 GMT -5
Here is something more that applies to the topic: From the Short History of Pomerania (ch. 3 The German Settlement of Pomerania) at members.tripod.com/~radde/GermanSettlement.htmlAt the beginning of the German settlements, the Germans and Slavic lived separately in the neighbor hood, some times it was very close, but never less apart. Gradually both population groups and the noble families mixed with each other. It became a German determined new tribe of Pomeranians This process ended in the middle of the 14th century, when the German settlement movement in Pomerania became to a certain end, being regarded only about two centuries later completely finished
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Post by OdinofOssetia on Jul 27, 2005 19:23:35 GMT -5
I don't entirely agree with what is stated here: 1) "Nature of colonization" - you're forgetting that the Polabian and Pomeranian Slavs were not entirely so colonized; Mecklemburg and Pomerania were both Slavic states ruled by Slavic dynasties that eventually were simply Germanized by massive cultural, political, and social interaction with the Germans and the Holy Roman Empire. There were no Germans mass murdering local Slavic males and taking their females as wives.2) The truth is that Pomeranians already existed as a separate identifiable Slavic nation for a long time before they were even Germanized; there were no Germans needed to mold them into a tribe. Besides, Radde and his cronies also make some suspicious claims, like that Vineta was captured by the vikings eight times - I know of only one such brief capture, in 1043 by the Danes. Perhaps they're referring to later captures of Wolin by the Danes, but they seem to forget that: a) It is by no means certain that Wolin and Vineta were one and the same, and b) The viking age ended in 1070 or 1100 (conventions on that vary), but the Danish captures of Wolin did not took place until 1200's, or too long afterwards. michalw.narod.ru/SlavicSpain.html PS - "Polako & "henerte" I have noticed your postings contain subtle anti-Slavic venom; are you Krauts?
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Post by Mike the Jedi on Jul 27, 2005 22:24:01 GMT -5
lol... "krauts"...
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Post by Anja on Jul 28, 2005 21:27:47 GMT -5
Just so you know, I've only posted the information I have been able to find on the topic, to be either agreed with or disputed. I don't believe there were mass murderings, nor do I believe the Pomeranians were "made" into a tribe by Germans. Of course Mecklenburg and Pommern were ruled by Slavic dynasties to begin with. But you were mainly speaking to Polako, yes? What do you think about mixing between various West Slavs and Germans?
krauts...wonderful...
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Post by nordicyouth on Aug 1, 2005 21:25:45 GMT -5
I've known about these acts of mass sexual violence for some time. In fact, Red Cross shelters were set up in Allied-controlled Germany for fleeing women. However, much of this occurred in Berlin, immediately after German capitulation. Apparently, the first wave of the Red Army were disciplined veterans of previous fighting and largely did not participate in these acts. It was the follow-up troops - generally raw conscripts - that began to gang-rape. Almost always they killed the woman or girl in question (age was not a factor). Add to that the fact that such a shock to the body would not produce the most fertile of conditions (plus points from other posts) and I believe it is safe to assume that Soviet sexual violence had less than 0% impact on the German population.
Indeed, after the population transfers between Communist Poland and Soviet-occupied Germany, it is safe to assume that Eastern Germany was more ethnically pure than before WWII; certainly Poland was. Ironically, according to the 1997 Oxford Atlas, Poland was the most ethnically pure country in Europe.
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Post by nordicyouth on Aug 1, 2005 21:46:35 GMT -5
Today, there remain some 2 million Sorbs (Slavic Germans) in East Germany. There was (prior to 1945), heavy Slavic admixture in Eastern Germany, especially in the North where the pagan tribe of Polabians existed (centred around Rostock). Interesting that the heavily Slavic lands are mainly in the state of Prussia, which produced the majority of Imperial Germany's aristocracy, its Imperial family, and the German officer corps. This same officer corps survived into WWII after Hitler favoured the army over the S.A. It would be ironic if those responsible for the planning and execution of the Poles (and ultimately Slavic peoples) were derived largely from these territories of Germanized Slavs. Indeed, Western Slavs (particularly from the North) are more fairer than Germans, making the Germanized Slavs ideal candidates for the S.S. Let's not forget that the S.S. would abduct Nordic-looking children from the countries they occupied and take them to be raised as Germans. RE: The Central Asians Doing the Raping. It was standard Russian, and later Soviet military policy to station troops from Central Asia in Eastern Europe and the Baltics, and visa versa to maintain control over soldier and citizen. Also, raping was a standard Russian and Soviet tactic resulting more in terrorism than admixture. Admixture was achieved through forced colonization; ethnic tensions in the CIS states are a legacy of this. From the Huns to the Mongols, to Lapps serving in Swedish armies during the Thirty Years War, to Russian and Soviet soldiers, Asians have received a lot of bad flak in regards to sexual crimes. However, militaristic raping is almost always exaggerated (e.g. the Thirty Years War); more often than not, men terrorize their own women when given the opportunity. Remember also, that the German soldiers were quite capable of raping women in occupied nations and/or sending them to Nazi brothels. For women in South Korea, Japan, the Phillippines, and parts of Europe, the presence of US military bases means a higher risk of rape (and let's NOT blame it on non-White soldiers - I've seen the offender's pictures - they seem to resemble Billy Bob Thornton ). After years of occupation, even Poles assaulted German women being transferred back to Germany after hundreds of years of settlement. Some Germans want their Slavic lands back, but I think their turn at imperialism and oppression is over.
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Post by Marobud on Aug 21, 2005 14:15:31 GMT -5
Geneticaly, Eastern Germans are more Slavic then Czechs! Also the villages names in Eastern Germany are PURE Slavic. In Czech schools, we have been learnt that Elbe-Slavs were conquered militarily about year 1000. Then they were germanized by military action, German colonisation and German rule. Czechs (Kingdom of Bohemia) kept their freedom thanks to the border mountains and smart politics (kind of co-operation with Germans, voluntary christianisation, some lucky battles). For some time, Lausitz belonged to Kingdom of Bohemia, therefore Serbs germanized not so fast as people of Mecklenburg..
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Post by OdinofOssetia on Aug 27, 2005 15:21:31 GMT -5
Not entirely true about the military conquest, as both Mecklemburg and Pomerania were never really directly conquered, but they did become part of the Holy Roman Empire, so eventually they were Germanized by cultural, social, and political interaction with Germany.
Lusatia was briefly part of Poland, and later for a long time part of the Czech Kingdom; it is interesting that even the region of Brandenburg, with Berlin, was for a time under Czech rule. :-)
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