Slaven
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Post by Slaven on May 8, 2004 1:16:10 GMT -5
Maybe the Theory of continuity gives the answer (please read the thread "The Continuity theory" on this forum). Here is what the eminent linguist Mario Alinei states in his two volumes, published in 1996 and 2000:
"I have to commence by clearing away one of the most absurd consequences of the traditional chronology, namely, that of the 'arrival' of the Slavs into the immense area in which they now live. The only logical conclusion can be that the southern branch of the Slavs is the oldest and that from it developed the Slavic western and eastern branches in a differing manner and perhaps at different times."
"Today only a minority of experts support the theory of a late migration for the Slavs... because none of the variant versions of such late settlement answers the question of what crucial factor could possibly have enabled the Slavs to have left their Bronze-Age firesides to become the dominant peoples of Europe. The southwestern portion of the Slavs had always bordered on the Italic people in Dalmatia, as well as in the areas of the eastern Alps and in the Po lowlands."
"The surmised 'Slavic migration' is full of inconsistencies. There is no 'northern Slavic language', it is rather only a variant of the southern Slavic... The first metallurgic cultures in the Balkans are Slavic... and connected with Anatolia... Slavic presence in the territory, nearly identical to the one occupied by them today, exists ever since the Stone Age... The Slavs have (together with the Greeks and other Balkan peoples developed agriculture... agriculturally mixed economy, typically European, which later enabled the birth of the Greek, Etruscan, and Latin urbanism. Germanic peoples adopted agriculture from the Slavs... The Balkans is one of the rare regions in which a real and true settlement of human groups coming from Anatolia is proven...].
REFERENCES
Mario Alinei, Origini delle lingue d’Europa, Vol. I: La teoria della continuità, Il Mulino, Bologna, 1996;
Vol. II: La continuità delle principali aree etnolinguistiche dal Mesolitico all’età del Ferro, Il Mulino, Bologna, 2000.
BIOGRAPHY
Mario Alinei is Professor Emeritus at the University of Utrecht, where he taught from 1959 to 1987.
Founder and editor of "Quaderni di semantica" review.
He is president of "Atlas Linguarum Europae".
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Post by Aria88 on May 8, 2004 7:24:09 GMT -5
Sorry to disagree with you, my fellow Pole, but I believe the Slavs branched off from the Indo-European homeland much farther east. In my opinion, based on that of a faction of IE scholars, that nexus was somewhere between Ukraine and the Caspian Sea, Maybe even somewhat farther east than that. There have been Indo-Europeanists who claim a Balkan Urheimat, but I personally abnegate this theory. Just an opinion. Can neither prove nor disprove it .
What do you think of Narodowe Odrodzenie Polski?
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Post by executiona9 on May 8, 2004 9:32:25 GMT -5
Slavs are not native to the Balkan. Illyrians, Thracians and Greeks are native to the Balkan.
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Post by Zetaman on May 8, 2004 10:46:05 GMT -5
This is a pathetic mythomaniac attempt of local balkanic slavophylics (since they are assimilated into slavs and not of actual slavic origin, at least for the most part) to prove that slavs, obvious cultural and racial balkanic intruders, are original to a region of Haimos.
Slavic neodanubian elements are present in all the regions where slavs invaded including Pannonia and NE Romania and this element being large apsent in bigger numbers in regions such as much of former Yu and Bulgaria rather suggest that the preslavic elements survived and only assumed slavic indent.
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Slaven
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Post by Slaven on May 8, 2004 12:22:54 GMT -5
Hi Aria88. Actually I am Slovenian I read somewhere on this forum the following bright words: If you don't wish to peruse the contents of these scholarly writings, that's your prerogative. It's not my intention to convince you of anything. You simply prove that the closed-minded need not ever test their beliefs. Hurrah for you. Are those words your? If yes, than take Mario Alinei's Continuity theory as a strong support of your epistemology . Mario Alinei is not a local balkanic slavofill. Read carefully : BIOGRAPHY
Mario Alinei is Professor Emeritus at the University of Utrecht, where he taught from 1959 to 1987.
Founder and editor of "Quaderni di semantica" review.
He is president of "Atlas Linguarum Europae".
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Post by Artemidoros on May 8, 2004 15:52:18 GMT -5
Neo-Danubian is a racial type that most people associate with Slavs. It is not a dominant type in most Slavic countries but it appears to be present wherever Slavic languages are spoken, even as a small minority. It is definitely a small minority in the Balkans. Any thoughts on this?
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Post by Graeme on May 9, 2004 10:12:52 GMT -5
We are talking about a language group, Slavic. Yes there are stereotypic types associated with slavic speaking countries, but why shouldn't they vary like other speakers of different language groups. It is obvious that Greek ideas permeated northwards to Russia. Even Sts Cyril and Methodius, the saints of the Slavs, were essentially Greek in religion and based their writing on Greek script. So why shouldn't the slav speakers be attracted southwards towards civilisation like the NW Europeans were to the western Mediterranean.
The neo Danubian type has more to do with NE Europe as that is where the human ingredients of that type resided and they have a substantial local element involved that spoke Finno-Ugrian languages. South Slav speakers have more to do with elements from the Ukraine and the Pontid areas and are of different stock.
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Slaven
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Post by Slaven on May 9, 2004 11:00:40 GMT -5
The vanishing proportion of Neo-Danubian traits in South-Slavs can be explained by the Continuity theory. Alinei explicitely claims that the oldest Slavic (or more precisely retro-Slavic = the same language root before it was called Slavic) language was the language of the Soutern-Slavs. It is that language that spreaded toward north and west few milenia before the early middle ages came.
Alinei 1 There is no 'northern Slavic language', it is rather only a variant of the southern Slavic... The first metallurgic cultures in the Balkans are Slavic... and connected with Anatolia... Slavic presence in the territory, nearly identical to the one occupied by them today, exists ever since the Stone Age
Alinei 2 The only logical conclusion can be that the southern branch of the Slavs is the oldest and that from it developed the Slavic western and eastern branches in a differing manner and perhaps at different times."
In the early middle ages only a small proportion of Slavic people with Neo-Danubian (non Balkan) traits settles in the Balkans. Those NE Slavs, some of which had neo-Danubian traits, emerged during milenia of genetic and linguistic intermingling with the primordial Slavs from the Balkans.
Note: Mario Alinei as well as Collin Renfrew and other protagonists of the new paradigm claim that the IE languages separated much earlier than previously thought...so already at the end of the Neolithic we have very well differentiated IE languages.
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Post by Aria88 on May 9, 2004 11:34:05 GMT -5
Greetings, Slaven. Thank you. I am always willing to test my convictions. I'll check out what you suggest. BTW, the Indo-European Greeks are not indigenous to the Balkans. The (Old European) Minoans were indigenous.
I have a Leibach CD. They were cool. Rammstein owe much to them.
I speak no Slovenian, but from what little I've heard, I enjoy the way it sounds.
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Slaven
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Post by Slaven on May 9, 2004 12:02:13 GMT -5
Hi Aria88. Thank you for writing. Yes Leibach are cool with nice musical ideas and great expirience and I like you love their art . You can find an outline of Mario Alinei's concept in the Linguistics section on this forum under the title: The Continuity Theory .
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Post by Artemidoros on May 11, 2004 17:43:53 GMT -5
In the early middle ages only a small proportion of Slavic people with Neo-Danubian (non Balkan) traits settles in the Balkans. Those NE Slavs, some of which had neo-Danubian traits, emerged during milenia of genetic and linguistic intermingling with the primordial Slavs from the Balkans. I see. The northern Slavs returned to the metropolis of Slavism, the Balkans.
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Slaven
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Post by Slaven on May 12, 2004 4:20:58 GMT -5
Slavism is an ideology. Here we talk about sholarly conclusions of non-Slavic scholars based on evidence.
Here are the words of Alinei:
"The only model which would be in full accordance with the archaeological record is then a Continuity Model (CM), which would project IE and non-IE peoples and languages in Europe from Paleolithic times, allowing for minor invasions and infiltrations only of local scope, and mostly dated to the Metal Ages, and thus with an elitaire and colonial character. Their linguistic impact on autochthonous peoples would never go beyond that of a superstrate."
Thus, those minor invasions of N.Slavs were of elitaire and colonial character and only of local scope. Their linguistic impact on autochthonous peoples was never beyond that of a superstrate."
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Post by Artemidoros on May 12, 2004 17:04:29 GMT -5
I used the word in an ethnocultural sense, equivalent to Hellenism but they are not equivalent. Sorry for the confusion. I am not sure I understand this last phrase. In any case, I do believe that there are very few cases in history where the autochthonous populations have been almost completely replaced by invaders or others. Languages though are a different matter. There are plenty of examples of how a minority have imposed their language on the majority. What is the ancestral land of the Baltic languages according to Alinei BTW?
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Post by Graeme on May 13, 2004 7:47:47 GMT -5
I don't know one slavic language from another, but I think the assumptions regarding the age of various slav languages is not logical. It may annoy the inhabitants of the northern parts of Europe, both west and east, but civilisation, including writing scripts and literature, is a totally southern European thing. The nearness of south slav speakers to south European civilisation and culture centres would mean that the south slav speakers would have some hundreds of years headstart compared to the northern slav speakers who were basically ignorant, illiterate and primitive. It follows that the south slav speakers would have more advanced languages and literature in comparison. It also explains the difference between west and east slav speakers, one influence by classical civilisation via Rome and the other via Greece and Constantinople.
But to say that the slavic language homeland is in the Balkans cannot be proven simply because the south slavs speakers of the Balkans acted as a conduit of civilisation to the north. It is just serendipity.
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Post by Aria88 on May 13, 2004 19:04:28 GMT -5
I'm going to hate myself for saying this... but... I agree with Graeme, except that the Slavs received culture via Iranian nomads as well as that of the so-called higher civilizations of S Europe. Otherwise, that boy Graeme is right for once.
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