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Post by xxx on Feb 1, 2004 18:23:57 GMT -5
I have also heard that a dialect similar to mirandês is spoken in some of the more isolated villages in the neighbouring Spanish region, especially by old people. I found this link: Língua Mirandesaand here is a map: www.terravista.pt/bilene/2957/Mapa.htmbut it doesn't show any area in Spain. Aha! An example that the Portuguese, just like Castilians, try to keep the hegemony over the rest of Hispania!!! I had a wrong idea about the origins of Portuguese, I didn't know about the mozarabic Romance. Here in Valencia, some people believe that Valencian is a language on its own right because of the influences of the algarabia spoken by the Mozarabs prior to the Conquest. But the truth is that the language was brought from Western Catalonia by the people who came to repopulate the area. Actually, in Castilian the word "hurto" is also an archaism, but it is used as a legal term, where there is a difference between "hurto" and "robo". I think that "hurto" is a lesser act.
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Post by Silveira on Feb 1, 2004 20:23:32 GMT -5
I said that the dialect was similar but not identical. I think on the Spanish side they just call it "Leonés" or something. It is virtually extinct and only spoken by old people in a few villages. An artificial "Leonese" has been trumpeted by some dubious people in recent years but I was told that this is just a version of Asturian. Authentic Leonese is something similar to the Mirandês dialect and is today virtually extinct in Spain.
Not really. Most of the linguistic scholars who make up these classifications aren´t even Portuguese (or Spanish for that matter). It is just a convenient way of grouping languages and dialects. Portuguese also has spawn numerous Creole dialects spoken in Africa, Asia, and the Americas.
Portuguese is essentially derived from the old Luso-Galaico. However, with the reconquest of the southern half of the kingdom, the language of the southern inhabitants did influence the official Portuguese. Portugal´s courts were held mostly in Coimbra and Lisbon, the latter being located in southern Portugal and both having a significant moçarabic heritage. Most of the inhabitants of southern Portugal during the moorish period remained Catholic. Faro in the extreme south of Portugal was known as Santa Maria even under the Moorish domination. The promontory at Cape St. Vincent near Sagres was a place of Christian pilgrimage during the Moorish period.
One of the best works of Portuguese literature from the 17th century is the "Arte de Furtar" which is popularly attributed to the Jesuit Padre António Vieira.
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Post by xxx on Feb 2, 2004 7:50:39 GMT -5
I said that the dialect was similar but not identical. I think on the Spanish side they just call it "Leonés" or something. I think the name is Llïonés. I can guess who those " dubious people" are. A tiny marginal and radical group of leftist loonies who claim for a País Llïonés or something similar. I believe that León should be given an autonomous status different to that of Castilla (or, Castilla a different status, which is the same), but as the autonomous communities stand right now I don't know if it would be economically good or viable for the region. I've heard that in the comarca of El Bierzo (Ponferrada) they speak a Leonese closer to Galician... or Galician, not sure. It was just a joke. I owed you that one from Alex's forum. Now that I know about the Mozarabic Romance spoken in the region of Lusitania, it makes more sense to say "Luso-Galaico" than "Galaico-Portugués". That is what Mozarabs were, Christians who lived under the yoke of Islam. I think the word Mozarab comes from must-arab, which means "arab-like" or "arabicized".
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Post by Silveira on Feb 2, 2004 13:27:55 GMT -5
Yes. Ever since the end of the Franco regime, it has become fashionable amongst leftists in every part of Spain to claim some sort of special regional language, even if this involves making one up. Virtually everyone in León and Extremadura speak Castillian as their first language.
Both terms are correct but I prefer Luso-Galaico because this proto-language predates the foundation of the Portuguese Kingdom and encompasses in geographic terms the old Roman province of Lusitania as well as Galicia. For the most part, the Mozarabic dialects of what is now southern Portugal appear to have been closer to the old Luso-Galaico than to the old Castillian. The Guadiana river was the old border between Lusitania and Baetica in the extreme south and this Roman boundry led to the appearance of distinct languages in Andaluzia and southern Portugal, the latter being in communication with the western fringe of the peninsula where Luso-Galaico was spoken. Modern standard Portuguese is made up of both "northern" and "southern" elements. However, dialectical differences between northern, central and southern spoken Portuguese are still very apparent amongst the more rural and uneducated populations.
Yes. The Moçarabes were the native Hispano-Roman Christians who acquired some degree of Arabic culture. Interestingly, it was the Visigothic feudal landowners who converted to Islam and joined with the Moors much more readily than the bulk of the Hispano-Roman population. This changing of sides was one of the reasons why the Moors penetrated so easily into the peninsula. The reconquista, far from being a Nordic vs. Semite racial war as some self-styled "historical scholars" like to believe was in fact seen by Christian Moçarabes as a liberation against their Semitic and Germanic rulers, given that most of the latter simply switched sides in order to protect their priveleges. The North African Berbers, who accompanied the Moors and made up a large proportion of the Moorish armies frequently sided with the Hispano-Roman peninsulars in their rebellions against the Arabs. The various peninsular nationalities have very deep roots and we should be suspicious of those people, both foreign and domestic, who try to claim our Nations as the work of outside interlopers.
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