Some points on the history of ancient Spain

[Kukul-Kan]

During the first millennium B.C. the peninsula was inhabited by a complex variety of peoples, most of them organized into tribal groups. There has been much controversy over the ethnic and geographic origins of the ancient inhabitants. In the early twentieth century the "African" thesis was in vogue, postulating that the ancient Hispanic tribes were mainly the descendents of white migrants from northwest Africa. More recent interpretations, however, have stressed immigration and cultural influences from southern Europe and the eastern Mediterranean. Conclusive proof for any single unified interpretation is lacking, but the weight of evidence now favors the "Europeanist" interpretation.At any rate, in ancient times the peoples of the peninsula were not radically distinct from but possessed many of the cultural characteristics of the population of other parts of southern Europe and the Mediterranean littoral. The largest single ethnic element were the Iberian tribes that moved into the peninsula at some point during the second millennium B.C.--whether from north Africa or southern Europe--and spread out over a broad area. The first clearly definable group of immigrants from central or northern Europe was a sizable wave of Celtic migrants who entered the peninsula during the eighth and ninth centuries B.C.

It appears that the main ethnic and genetic components of the historic Hispanic peoples were already present before the Roman conquest, and that the great majority of subsequent "Spaniards" (or "Portuguese") were descendents of the original highly diversified ethnic stocks established in the pre-Roman period. Though the peninsula has been subject to invasion and very light immigration throughout its history, population movement at any time since the Roman conquest was not heavy enough to alter the genetic or phenotypical composition of the inhabitants significantly. The Romans described members of most of the Hispanic tribes as rather short, dark-haired, white-skinned, and physically agile, if not particularly muscular-- characteristics which would seem to describe modern as well as ancient inhabitants of the peninsula.
_________

Celtic immigration spread through much of the northern part of the peninsula during the eighth and ninth centuries B.C. In the northern sector of the central plateau and in the Duero valley in the interior of the northwestern area the Celts fused with the earlier population to form so-called Celtiberian communities. Some of these practiced extensive agriculture along with raising flocks and herds, and in the Duero valley tribal collectivist social patterns prevailed. In the northern hills of Asturias and the central Cantabrian range tribal life was more primitive. There the original population were mostly immigrants from southern France and northern Italy and were apparently taller and more muscular than the average Iberian. Partly because of the poorer soil, the economy of the northwest was largely pastoral, and social patterns tended toward matriarchy, possibly from Celtic influence.
________

There was extensive Roman immigration to the more developed eastern and southern areas of the peninsula. In other regions Roman culture was spread by administrators, educators, soldiers, merchants, and technicians. Sons of the Hispanic upper classes were sometimes sent to Rome for education. During the early part of the second century A.D. Rome was ruled by emperors of Hispano-Roman origin, and there were three more emperors from Hispania in the late fourth and early fifth centuries. Several important philosophers and writers of the empire, including Seneca and Lucan, came from the peninsula. Yet it should be noted that nearly all these major figures were the offspring of Roman officials and colonists living there, not of Romanized native Hispani.

A History of Spain and Portugal, Volume One -- Antiquity to the Seventeenth Century by Stanley G. Payne (Print Edition: University of Wisconsin Press, 1973)
libro.uca.edu/payne1/opening.htm

The library of Iberian resources online
libro.uca.edu/

[xxx]

While I find this article to be right, I'd like to point to what I believe is a common misunderstanding in the composition of the people of pre-Roman Hispania.

To know about the early inhabitants of the Peninsula the available sources are those of the Greeks and Romans of the time. Both of them had major contact with the inhabitants of the Eastern coasts of Hispania, and little to none with the tribes of the Northern and Western regions until later times. As a consequence, and until the organization of the Peninsula into Roman Administrations, the name by which is known as a whole takes after the inhabitants of these Mediterranean Eastern coasts, the Iberians.

But Iberians were not the only ethnic group, and probably not the largest of them either. The Southern area was inhabited by the Turdetani, the descendents of the ancient Civilization of Tartessos (which vanished probably due to a clash with Carthage, and of which little is known nowadays). Nothing suggests that the Turdetani were related to the Iberi, nor to any other group in Hispania for that matter.

Another group is that of the Vasconi, the Basques. Again, the origins of this group remains an enigma at large. Some believe they were related to the Iberi, but it is most probable that they were ibericized, i.e. strongly influenced, culturally speaking, by the Iberi. Notice that the area occupied by the ancient Basques does not coincide with the modern Basque Country region. Basques spread North of the river Ebro (Iber) through the modern provinces of La Rioja, Navarra, Aragon and even into Lledia/Lerida (Catalonia), and in the Pyrennees both South and North (parts of Gascony). The Basque Country area used to be called Vascongadas, which in turn comes from Vasconizati ('Basquicized'). The ancient inhabitants of this area would probably be similar to those in adjacent areas, like the Cantabri and Vaccei.

These tribes in the Northern, Western and Central areas were mostly Hallstat Celts (if ethnically or culturally Celtic, and if Celts were a racial sub-group is beyond the point here). In later times the most Northern areas would receive an influx of Gaelic and Brythonic Celts. As for the Celtiberians I don't know if they were ibericized Celts or others celticized, though the suggestions point to a large Celtic influence in Hispania. One thing to notice here is that the Celtiberian script tables found, when compared to the Iberian script tables, might suggest a "borrowing" of the Iberian scripts by non-Iberian people.

Therefore, the substrata of the ancient Hispania would be a mixture of Indo European and Aboriginal European (what is sometimes known as 'Old European'). This, in my opinion, would be what explains the Nordic strain in Hispania, and not subsequent migrations of other "minor" Germanic groups like the Visigoths.

[Kukul-Kan]

Quite right in fact the original Iberians survived only in eastern Spain in what’s now the Catalan Countries, whereas central Spain was “celticized”. The main element that makes Basque different fro other Spanish populations is the west pyrenaic race according to Bosh Gimpera.

For more information you can read this article and review by the author.

He, as you’ve already mentioned, distinguishes the Tartessians from the Iberians and from the Northern Spanish populations (sub) racially speaking.

www.cervantesvirtual.com/servlet/SirveObras/litEx/12148752791274275209624/index.htm

[xxx]

Kukul-Kan said:

Quite right in fact the original Iberians survived only in eastern Spain in what’s now the Catalan Countries, whereas central Spain was “celticized”.

What I don't have much clue is if the central areas were racially "celiticized" or "ibericized". I mean.. Celts with a large influence of the Iberian culture or Iberians who received a large degree of Celtic influence?

The main element that makes Basque different fro other Spanish populations is the west pyrenaic race according to Bosh Gimpera.

For more information you can read this article and review by the author.

Just curious.. can you read Catalan? The article is written in Catalan.

[Kukul-Kan]

Mynydd said:

What I don't have much clue is if the central areas were racially "celiticized" or "ibericized". I mean.. Celts with a large influence of the Iberian culture or Iberians who received a large degree of Celtic influence?

The latter, because the original inhabitants, the Iberians, would have absorbed the invading Celts racially. Whereas the Iberians remained purer in eastern Spain, at least according to Bosch Gimpera’s view.

Just curious.. can you read Catalan? The article is written in Catalan.

Even though I cannot speak it I can read Catalan fairly well. I can understand spoken Catalan quite well too. I noticed that because one of my friend’s parents are from Barcelona. Her mother used to be my physics teacher in high school as well. It’s the same with Portuguese. I can read and understand it well even though I’ve never studied it. Plus Catalan has 85% lexical similarity with Spanish and 87% with Italian (I speak Italian too).

“Central Catalan has 87% lexical similarity with Italian, 85% with Portuguese and Spanish, 76% with Rheto-Romance, 75% with Sardinian, 73% with Rumanian. “<br>
www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=CLN

[alex221166]

Believe it or not, I find Catalan to be easier to read than Castillian.

[xxx]

Kukul-Kan said:

The latter, because the original inhabitants, the Iberians, would have absorbed the invading Celts racially. Whereas the Iberians remained purer in eastern Spain, at least according to Bosch Gimpera’s view.

Yes, it makes sense. The problem would be to draw the exact border lines where Celtic racial influence over Iberian was stronger, and where the Iberian substrata would have simply received a certain amount of Celtic racial/cultural influence.

Plus Catalan has 85% lexical similarity with Spanish and 87% with Italian (I speak Italian too).

"Central Catalan has 87% lexical similarity with Italian, 85% with Portuguese and Spanish, 76% with Rheto-Romance, 75% with Sardinian, 73% with Rumanian."

Those percentages in lexical similarities seem wrong to me.

I don't think the information contained in that site can be trusted. For example, regarding Valencian it says:
Central Catalan has about 90% to 95% inherent intelligibility to speakers of Valencian

This is plain wrong. A few words are used differently in Valencia, but this doesn't mean that they are different. For example, for "go out" (Castilian, "salir"), in Valencia we say "eixir" whereas in Catalonia they say "sortir". But both words exist in Catalonia as well as in Valencia, only that sometimes the usage is obsolete in one region.

Also, some endings are slightly different. E.g. "I go up" (yo subo) in Catalonia is "jo pujo" and in Valencia is "jo puje". This is only a local variant.

It also says:
Tortosin may be closer to Valencian

Wrong. Tortosí is spoken in the Northern Valencian area of Els Ports and El Maestrat, neighbouring with the Catalan area of Tortosa. But this is an isolated case in Valencia.

Then it places Valencian and Balearic as dialects of Catalan. This is very inexact. Valencian is a variant or sub-dialect of the Western Catalan dialect (also spoken in Lérida/Lleida and Ribagorza/Ribagorça). There is no such thing as Balearic, but Mallorquí, which is a variant or sub-dialect of Eastern Catalan (it has sub-variants like Ibicenc, which is spoken in the Island of Ibiza/Eivissa, and which holds some similarities with Valencian due to it being within easy reach from the coast of Valencia).

Besides, it speaks of a sub-dialect spoken in the Valley of Aran. Wrong. There they speak Aranes which is a mountain dialect of Gascon, an Occitan language. There, Catalan is spoken as a second language (together with Castilian).

alex said:

Believe it or not, I find Catalan to be easier to read than Castillian.

I'll take your word for it, but this does not mean that Portuguese is closer to Catalan than it is to Castilian. Both Portuguese and Castilian, and Galician for that matter, are Western Ibero-Romance languages, whereas Catalan is an Eastern Ibero-Romance language which could be as well classified as Gallo-Romance.

One reason why Portuguese and Catalan may look more similar is that both are more consistant when following the passing from Classic Latin to Late Latin, then to Vulgar Latin, and then to Romance. Whereas Old Castilian was a Romance language spoken by the little romanized peoples of Cantabria and Vasconia that retained a deal of their ancient languages, both in words and in sounds, and which went later through processes of re-structurization via the Latin spoken in the Northern monasteries.


I can read Portuguese through Castilian and the help of having read some Old Castilian literature. But yes, sometimes I understand some Portuguese words because of their correspondence with words in Catalan, which in Castilian are different.

[Kukul-Kan]

Sometimes the linguistic, ethnic and racial borders don’t have specific limits so it would be difficult to determine it exactly. Based on racial and cultural issues Bosch Gimpera believed the Catalan speaking countries were a refuge where pure Iberians remained while Central and Northern peoples in Spain mixed with the invading Celts.

Ethnologue.com is a very good site although t does have its mistakes. It takes separate dialects as separate languages for example.

I take your word on this Catalan issue but as I said, I studied Italian and the lexical similarities between Catalan and Italian are more than when you compare it with Spanish so I believe in that they got it correct.

[xxx]

Kukul-Kan said:

Sometimes the linguistic, ethnic and racial borders don’t have specific limits so it would be difficult to determine it exactly.

Which reminds me that the differences between the people of Hispania and those of Occitania (S. France: Provença, Lengadoc, Gasconha,...) are difficult to set. They share much of the same blood with us, Iberians, Basques and Celts, then Romans and Visigoths.

Also, during the Middle Ages in Hispania, it is said that people were able to communicate among themselves through speaking the different Northern Romance and Mozarab Romance languages.

Based on racial and cultural issues Bosch Gimpera believed the Catalan speaking countries were a refuge where pure Iberians remained while Central and Northern peoples in Spain mixed with the invading Celts.

Yes, this looks correct.

Ethnologue.com is a very good site although t does have its mistakes. It takes separate dialects as separate languages for example.

I find it oversimplistic, but that's just my personal opinion. It may be good for getting a rough idea.

I take your word on this Catalan issue but as I said, I studied Italian and the lexical similarities between Catalan and Italian are more than when you compare it with Spanish so I believe in that they got it correct.

If you want to see languages amazingly similar to Catalan, have a look at texts in Occitan languages (Provençal, Lengadocian, even Gascon... though Gascon is a bit distinctive as a language of Oc, and shares some oddities with Castilian). Of course, it is Catalan that takes from those languages, not the other way around.

[xxx]

Take for instance the following text in Occitan (I believe it is Lengadocian) taken from
perso.wanadoo.fr/ostal.sirventes/ocIEO.htm

L'Institut d'Estudis Occitans vòl desvolopar la cultura d'òc jos totas sas fòrmas.

("The Institute of Occitan Studies wants to develope the culture of Oc in all its forms" )

which in Catalan would be:

L'Institut d'Estudis Occitans vol desenvolupar la cultura d'Òc en totes les seves formes.

notes:
I don't know how "jos" translates.

The contracted form of "sas" (femenin "its" ) also exists in Catalan, and in its singular form, "sa" is widely used in the Valencian sub-dialect; in the Majorcan sub-dialect it gets confused with the article fem. plur. "sas".

[Kukul-Kan]

You have to remember that even Castilian was born as a sort of lingua franca in a place where vulgar Latin speakers and Basques lived together. The Basque grammatical influence isn’t big but the phonetic one can be appreciated at first glance. Especially in Northern Spanish varieties. The sound of the Spanish double r is characteristically Basque, just to give you an example.

Catalan is indeed sweeter than the harsher sounding Castilian but sometimes it gives me the impression of a “Gallicized Spanish” because of the nasal sounds.

By the way, what do you think of this poem in Algherese?

Vella Alguer

El cel mira el tou cor atzur,
les muralles
i les torres
ferides.
Vella ciutat,
plena de malenconia
i de paraules
callades,
en les teu ruines
se fermi
la mia veu.
Se obriran
encara les ventanes
tancades ?
Aquì <br>on sòn <br>les raguines
del temps,
ressoni
el meu cant
pels antics carrers,
on hi eren
profims de vida

[xxx]

Kukul-Kan said:

You have to remember that even Castilian was born as a sort of lingua franca in a place where vulgar Latin speakers and Basques lived together. The Basque grammatical influence isn’t big but the phonetic one can be appreciated at first glance.Especially in Northern Spanish varieties. The sound of the Spanish double r is characteristically Basque, just to give you an example.

Yes, that's correct afaik. Though the influence is not just Basque, but also Cantabrian (and probably other Northern tribes?). Celtic languages also have that rolled r sound.

Catalan is indeed sweeter than the harsher sounding Castilian but sometimes it gives me the impression of a “Gallicized Spanish” because of the nasal sounds.

When Castilla was just a County with a feudal dependancy on the Kingdom of León (where Lliones, a language probably similar to the Galaico-Portugues, was spoken), and the Castillians visited the Courts in Leon, the Leonese are said to have found the Castillian language as very rude and harsh in sounds.

I think I already mentioned something about this Occitan influence over Catalan. Some people classify Catalan as an Ibero-Romance language, while other do it as a Gallo-Romance. I prefer to think of it as an Ibero-Romance language with a strong Galo-Romance influence, so your observation is consistent with this.

By the way, what do you think of this poem in Algherese?

To be honest, I expected Alguerès to be somehow more different (it's a variant of Eastern Catalan, just like the Catalan spoken in Barcelona or Majorca).

I've just found the following words different:

el tou -> el teu -> your (sing.)

les teu -> les teves/teues -> your (plur.)

The verb fermar in Catalan means to 'make firm' ... I don't know if they are using it with that meaning or the Italian fermare, 'to stop'.

la mia -> la meva/meua -> my (sing.)
(this may be Italian or Castilian influence)

ventanes -> finestres -> windows
(they use the same word than in Castilian)

raguines ->

profims -> may be perfums? if it takes after the Italian profumo.

Oh.. and they use atzur, which exists in Catalan but blau is used instead.

Except for the above mentioned, the poem would pass for Peninsular Catalan perfectly. I read that Italy just gave Catalan an official status in L'Alguer, but I've heard that hearing people speaking Catalan there is not very common. I wonder how it will sound, that could make a difference (I have problems to understand people from Majorca or sometimes Girona, but with people from Lleida or Tarragona is perfectly alright; I once spoke to one guy from Rosselló, and found it a bit difficult, though I suspect he didn't spoke Catalan fluently due to French policies).

[Silveira]

When Castilla was just a County with a feudal dependancy on the Kingdom of León (where Lliones, a language probably similar to the Galaico-Portugues, was spoken), and the Castillians visited the Courts in Leon, the Leonese are said to have found the Castillian language as very rude and harsh in sounds.

A variant of the old Leonese language is still spoken to this day in the extreme north-east of Portugal in and around the town of Miranda do Douro. This dialect is known as "mirandês" and differs significantly from either Portuguese or Galician.


www.orbilat.com/Modern_Romance/Ibero-Romance/Asturian-Mirandes/

Mirandês is an Asturian dialect, spoken in the councils of Miranda do Douro and Vimioso (a total area of nearly 500 sq kms), the province of Tras os Montes in the North-Eastern corner of Portugal.

The dialects is written according to the norms of the Portuguese writing system (see the Portuguese Alphabet and the Portuguese Spelling and Pronunciation).

The first serious literary attempts in Mirandês are dated in the second half of the 19th century. In 1882 José Leite de Vasconcelos published his remarkable book " Dialecto Mirandês".

At present, Mirandês is spoken by some 10,000 people, almost entirely in the rural area. The population is effectively bilingual (people speak also the official Portuguese language), but it shows a deep affection for Mirandês which enjoys a higher prestige in the social contacts and is taught at the local schools.

[xxx]

Yes, I had heard of Mirandes, but I thought it was also spoken in Miranda de Duero. I am surprised to learn that there is an Asturian-Leonese dialect in Extremadura.

In that site, they say that "Galician, spoken in northwestern Spain, is often considered a dialect of Portuguese."

I think it would be more exact to say that both Galician and Portuguese come from a common ancient Galaico-Portuguese language.
They also say that Galician is spoken North of the Douro/Duero river, in Portugal. Is that right?

One thing I've found curious is that the word for "stealing"... roubar (Portuguese), robar (Castilian), robar (Catalan... though it is also common furtar) and rubbare (Italian), ... is borrowed from the Germanic tribes. One must wonder what the Germanics' trades were!!!

[Silveira]

Yes, I had heard of Mirandes, but I thought it was also spoken in Miranda de Duero. I am surprised to learn that there is an Asturian-Leonese dialect in Extremadura.

I have also heard that a dialect similar to mirandês is spoken in some of the more isolated villages in the neighbouring Spanish region, especially by old people.

In that site, they say that "Galician, spoken in northwestern Spain, is often considered a dialect of Portuguese."

The Luso-Galaico group is often refered to as the "Portuguese" group because standard Portuguese is the most important language of this group, being spoken by hundreds of millions of people and being the official language of several nations.

I think it would be more exact to say that both Galician and Portuguese come from a common ancient Galaico-Portuguese language.

You are correct, modern Gallego and modern Portuguese are derived from the same proto-language but suffered a different evolution, Gallego being influenced by Castillian and Portuguese by the moçarabic dialects of southern Portugal.

They also say that Galician is spoken North of the Douro/Duero river, in Portugal. Is that right?

No. Galician is only spoken in Galicia and in the colonies of Gallego emigrants. The dialect spoken in northern Portugal, especially in the rural villages is more or less similar to spoken Galician but not identical.

One thing I've found curious is that the word for "stealing"... roubar (Portuguese), robar (Castilian), robar (Catalan... though it is also common furtar) and rubbare (Italian), ... is borrowed from the Germanic tribes. One must wonder what the Germanics' trades were!!!

In Portuguese, furtar is considered a more formal and perhaps a more "archaic" term. Roubar is more widely used in common conversation although, for example, our Criminal Code always designates a theft as a "furto" and never as a "roubo".