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Post by Dienekes on Nov 28, 2003 14:33:52 GMT -5
It should be noted that Y chromosome haplogroup R1a (HG3) is not a Slavic marker. Certainly it is found in high frequency in Slavic populations, but that doesn't mean that it was associated with the Slavic expansion. Its great age, Central Asian or Indian subcontinental origin, wide distribution in both Europe and Asia seem to indicate that it was widely distributed before the medieval period. Hence, a high frequency of R1a does not imply that a group is descended primarily from Slavs.
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Dean
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Post by Dean on Nov 28, 2003 16:29:32 GMT -5
If I may digress, I am wondering what is the nature of Y DNA Haplogroup 2. Is this group Eu7 and Eu8, that according to Semino et al. migrated to Europe from the Middle East 20,000-25,000 years ago? If it is, there's some confusing data out there. In the Rosser et al. study, Greek and Turkish populations have, respectively, 22% and 25% of this haplogroup. In the Semino study Greeks have 7.9% Eu7 and Turks have 3.3%. Cypriots in the Rosser study have a high percetage of HG2. Are there sub-branches of HG2 that account for the disparities? What exactly is Haplogroup 2?
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Post by Dienekes on Nov 28, 2003 17:00:36 GMT -5
Are there sub-branches of HG2 that account for the disparities? What exactly is Haplogroup 2? Yes, haplogroup 2 encompasses several other haplogroups (at least I,G and others). The markers defining these haplogroups were not known when HG2 was used.
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Post by Artemidoros on Nov 28, 2003 19:34:17 GMT -5
In the Peloponnese there are Slavic place names, especially Greek/Slavic hybrid place names like Hrisovitsi and Kerasitsa. Slavic endings like -tsa and -tsi are part of the modern Greek language. What you describe as hybrid place names are actually Greek. Many Slavic place names in northern Greece have been given to Vlach villages. I do not know the reason but it is striking. Metsovo is the biggest Vlach town in the Balkans and the name is obviously Slavic (meaning bearland or something to do with bears). The Romance speaking Vlachs call it Aminciu and it is the Greeks who call it Metsovo! What is also striking is that though there are many Slavic place names there are very few Slavic words in modern Greek. An interesting one is kounavi (Sl. kuna) which is synonymous with nyfitsa (pine marten to the Anglophones). Kunavi is slavic whereas nyfitsa is Greek with a Slavic ending (from nymphe=nymph). I don't know if the two words have different geographical distribution but in my parts we use both.
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Dean
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Post by Dean on Nov 28, 2003 19:44:06 GMT -5
Kunavi is slavic whereas nyfitsa is Greek with a Slavic ending (from nymphe=nymph). I don't know if the two words have different geographical distribution but in my parts we use both. What you said is that hybrid place names are Greek, and then you say that Nyfitsa is Greek with a Slavic suffix. Please clarify. My co-worker, who is of Polish descent, said his mother is from a town in Poland with the -itsa suffix. I hope to research the -itsa suffix and provide a post. If someone has researched the suffix -itsa, please post.
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Post by Artemidoros on Nov 28, 2003 20:13:11 GMT -5
What you said is that hybrid place names are Greek, and then you say that Nyfitsa is Greek with a Slavic suffix. Please clarify. My co-worker, who is of Polish descent, said his mother is from a town in Poland with the -itsa suffix. I hope to research the -itsa suffix and provide a post. If someone has researched the suffix -itsa, please post. Nyfitsa is modern Greek. A diminutive of nymphe. Since the Middleages the -itsa suffix denotes the diminutive in modern Greek (usually).
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Post by AWAR on Nov 28, 2003 20:17:08 GMT -5
Nyfitsa is modern Greek. A diminutive of nymphe. Since the Middleages the -itsa suffix denotes the diminutive in modern Greek (usually). Perhaps the Greeks picked this up from Slavic tribes, because -itsa is a diminutive suffix in all Slavic languages.
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Post by Dienekes on Nov 28, 2003 20:17:13 GMT -5
What you said is that hybrid place names are Greek, and then you say that Nyfitsa is Greek with a Slavic suffix. Please clarify. My co-worker, who is of Polish descent, said his mother is from a town in Poland with the -itsa suffix. I hope to research the -itsa suffix and provide a post. If someone has researched the suffix -itsa, please post. The -itsa/-itsi suffix is of Slavic origin, but it has been incorporated in the Greek language. So, when we say "koritsi", we are using the -itsi suffix, but the word is Greek, from "korê", young girl. Or, when we say "nyfitsa" is from "nymphê", a Greek word. So, endings in -itsa/-itsi don't necessarily mean that a word is Slavic. It's like saying that the word "optimism" is Greek, because -ism is a Greek ending. Actually it is from "optimus", a Latin word.
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Post by Dienekes on Nov 28, 2003 20:25:06 GMT -5
Nyfitsa is modern Greek. A diminutive of nymphe. Since the Middleages the -itsa suffix denotes the diminutive in modern Greek (usually). Greek has picked up another diminutive from Latin, -ula. So, we can also say nyfoula, again from nymphê, which means "bride", whereas the form with the -itsa, nyfitsa denotes the animal. Greek has lots of ways to express diminutives, both its own and borrowed from other languages, and it's possible to string them together, e.g., morou-li-na-ki ("little baby")
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Dean
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Post by Dean on Nov 29, 2003 2:02:41 GMT -5
In regards to one of my previous posts, I provided a photo. The man in the middle of the photo is Borovas, a Peloponnesian Greek with a Slavic surname. He is pctured here with my grandfather's sister, his wife. He looks very Mediterranean--slender and long-headed. Here is the photo link: briefcase.yahoo.com/dmoulopoulos@ameritech.net. P.S. In no way am I trying to be racist or implying that one type of person is better than another. I feel very lucky to have been born and raised in a large U.S. city, where I have met and befriended many different people.
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Dean
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Post by Dean on Nov 29, 2003 4:59:14 GMT -5
In Croatia, male Haplogroup Eu7, which is believed to have spread to Europe from the Middle East 20,000-25,000 years ago, predominates. It is almost twice as prevalent as Eu19, a haplogroup strongly associated with Slavs. As seen via the Semino et al. study on haplogroup distributions for modern Europeans, the situation is the reverse for other Slavic-speaking groups such as Polish, Ukrainians and Hungarians--western and eastern Slavs--who have far more of the Eu19 marker than Eu7. The same phenomenon is seen in Romanian and Bulgarian populations (Rosser et al.). According to literature posed at www.hr/darko/etf/et01.html, the Croats arrived in the Adriatic region in the 8th Century A.D., where they encountered Romanized indigenous population elements. The name Croatia is also not indigenous; its earliest reference can be found on Greek stone inscriptions from around the Black Sea from ca 200 A.D. It is reportedly Iranian and was called "Horovathos." The evidence shows that the Slavs were culturally important but genetically relatively minor. To play devil's advocate and say that a "backflow" of Eu7 was brought to Croatia with Slavic migrations and Eu 19 is very doubtful, for reasons stated above. Some of Eu19 even may be of pre-Slavic origin. By the way, the name Horovathos sounds Greek, meaning "deep land".
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Slaven
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Post by Slaven on Dec 5, 2003 6:59:55 GMT -5
Hi my friends, I live in Slovenia. Many times I've heard that the Slavs slavicized the indigenous populations in the early middle ages. Also, many times I've asked myself: How is it possible that the civilized Romans and Byzantines didn't romanized the Illyrians and the Thracians (with few minor exeptions - Vlachs and Albanians) and the uncivilized Slavic barbarians did that? Usually the languages are imposed by culture (cultural flow), or by the ruling class, (i.e. elite dominance), but not "by the dominance of the ruled" (which is classical contradictio in adjecto). As the 19-th century German History School claims, the Southern Slavs were uncivilized barbarians ruled by the Byzantines. How it happened that their language became dominant all over the Balkans while they were ruled? Can someone explain this to me ?
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skord
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Post by skord on Dec 26, 2003 17:33:32 GMT -5
I want to 'bump' this thread because I fully agree with slaven's post. Anyone want to answer his question or do some here actually think that a couple of hundred horny slavic warriors on horse-back galloped down from the north, slaughtered all of the indigenous "Illyrian"(LOL)men and rode off with their women? LOL
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Post by AWAR on Dec 26, 2003 18:11:52 GMT -5
Well.... the other possibility is that:
1. the romanized Illyrians weren't great in number. 2. Illyrians welcomed the Slavs and gradually changed their language.
I think that there has been a mass genocide of the population of the Balkans by it's many passing raiders, like Goths, Huns and Avars.
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Dean
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Post by Dean on Dec 26, 2003 21:16:01 GMT -5
Well.... the other possibility is that: 1. the romanized Illyrians weren't great in number. 2. Illyrians welcomed the Slavs and gradually changed their language. I think that there has been a mass genocide of the population of the Balkans by it's many passing raiders, like Goths, Huns and Avars. The relatively few genetic studies of Balkan populations don't bear this out. By looking at the Semino et al. study of European Y DNA, one can see that indigenous populations survived in great numbers. Cavalli-Sforza stated in one or more of his publications that it's not likely that post-Roman-Empire invasions had much genetic impact in Europe because of large indigenous populations. Byzantine influence on local populations probably weakened the further north one travels in the Balkans. In Greece, Byzantine authority was reestablished after invasions by Slavs, Avars, Goths, Huns, etc. It's been written that some of these peoples traveled in small armies with the sole aim of conquest whereas the Slavs invaded and settled. Even still, this apparently hasn't eradicated the genes of indigenous populations in the Balkans.
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