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Post by $$$ FD $$$ on Nov 6, 2005 18:01:00 GMT -5
no i actually haven't, as i don't read german. can you explain what the obvious variation is Agrippa?
dravidians are a moister looking people, convergently we resemble the very moist cariocas in rio de janerio lol! this is just evident from the way we look; if you were to look at a big group of somalis, afars or ethiopians their overall features look drier - so that's a valid point in and of itself -
some indo melanid variants (as individuals) look drier - less moist, like that dark skinned, whiskered dravidid that Platypus posted.
explain what the obvious variation within that group is.
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Post by Agrippa on Nov 6, 2005 18:57:43 GMT -5
Its partly constitutional, partly racial, from Pyknics/Endomorphics which look always "more moistly" to Leptosomics and from Nordindid to Gracilindid. Eickstedt showed a series of plates of Todas, unfortunately I dont have it at home.
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Post by $$$ FD $$$ on Nov 6, 2005 20:04:17 GMT -5
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Post by Agrippa on Nov 6, 2005 20:25:54 GMT -5
They are more Indomelanid. Interesting note: philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/india/tribal.htmlThe Todas are not as Nordindid as the Sikhs, but still they are largely and so its quite likely they came from the North rather - or at least parts of their current population.
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Post by $$$ FD $$$ on Nov 6, 2005 20:28:20 GMT -5
megalithic monuments are supposed to be fairly common in the deccan plateau.
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Post by $$$ FD $$$ on Nov 6, 2005 20:33:41 GMT -5
north indians such as sikhs and gujarathis have had a very transformative genetic history especially since the early islamic period in that area - both groups gujaratis and sikhs have a significant west eurasian ancestry mixed into their indigenous south asian one -
you cannot compare a dravidid people with a northern group such as the sikhs as the gene pools of punjabi groups is extremely intermixed with the west eurasian one. sikhs in the social sense are comparatively brand new lol.
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Post by Agrippa on Nov 6, 2005 20:48:56 GMT -5
north indians such as sikhs and gujarathis have had a very transformative genetic history especially since the early islamic period in that area - both groups gujaratis and sikhs have a significant west eurasian ancestry mixed into their indigenous south asian one - you cannot compare a dravidid people with a northern group such as the sikhs as the gene pools of punjabi groups is extremely intermixed with the west eurasian one. sikhs in the social sense are comparatively brand new lol. I know, I'm familiar with the Sikh history and religion more or less. Todas have more Gracilindid and even Weddoid admixture, Sikhs more Orientalid one - being very Nordindid, Todas at least strongly Nordindid. Were there genetic studies done on Todas btw, do you know? In terms of racial specialisation they are not too far at least - always keeping the different amount and kind of admixture in both cases in mind.
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Post by Agrippa on Nov 6, 2005 21:23:40 GMT -5
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Post by $$$ FD $$$ on Nov 6, 2005 21:48:58 GMT -5
north indians such as sikhs and gujarathis have had a very transformative genetic history especially since the early islamic period in that area - both groups gujaratis and sikhs have a significant west eurasian ancestry mixed into their indigenous south asian one - you cannot compare a dravidid people with a northern group such as the sikhs as the gene pools of punjabi groups is extremely intermixed with the west eurasian one. sikhs in the social sense are comparatively brand new lol. I know, I'm familiar with the Sikh history and religion more or less. Todas have more Gracilindid and even Weddoid admixture, Sikhs more Orientalid one - being very Nordindid, Todas at least strongly Nordindid. Were there genetic studies done on Todas btw, do you know? In terms of racial specialisation they are not too far at least - always keeping the different amount and kind of admixture in both cases in mind. i wouldn't know how to interpret genetic studies; what admx? sikhs are a bad group for a comparison - sikhs and other punjabi peoples are all over the place including mongolid influences - more indo - brachid etc, but you are more accurate by comparing them to south indian populations - just in terms of long headedness - well there are many dolicocephallic people in the south normally western coastal ones - like in dolicocephallic keralites while in the more western area of tamil nadu and andhra dravidid indid dolicocephally is more dispersed; still its inaccurate to associate this trait with a higher social status in the south.
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Post by Agrippa on Nov 6, 2005 22:02:39 GMT -5
The main features of Nordindids compared with other Indians are: Quite hairy, tall, lighter pigmented, narrow-prominent nose and generally quite pronounced Europid features. The typical Kerala people are more Indomelanid (mostly Indid morphology, but partly deviating, dark pigmentation). Dolichocephalic are most groups in India (with the exception of Indobrachids, Armenoid mixed people (in the North) certain Weddoid variants and Mongolid admixture) so thats not the point.
Todas are racially more Northern and Europid than the other, surrounding, especially the other tribal populations and show cultural influences which point in the same direction. Now pre-Aryan Dravidian upper class was more Europoid in type as were (obviously) later Aryan settlers and both are more common in the upper castes (Brahmans and Kshatryas) and tribal-religious groups (Sikhs and Northern, f.e. Kashmiri, muslims of the North) than in the lower caste groups/outcastes/pariahs and tribal groups (compare with Veddas) of the South. Todas now share more with Northern and high castes than with Southerns and low castes both in type and probably (f.e. according to this study) genetically.
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RUDRA
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Posts: 189
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Post by RUDRA on Nov 7, 2005 0:24:24 GMT -5
Indeed, I believe the original Dravidians came from outside of India and were Caucasoid. I believe that they came from outside too(middle-east). As for being Caucasoid, I don't know(maybe proto-caucasoid). I believe these Caucasoid Dravidians were responsible for the Harappan civilization Interesting theory, but I believe if anybody has the claims to Harappan civilization, it's todays Pakistani and North-Indian(sikh/hindu Punjabi, Gujarati and rajathani)peoples, not modern south-indians. Plus archaeological physical Harappan skeltons were similar to modern Pakistani peoples, meaning racially they were the same. If anything Indus civilization could have been started by an Indo-european people, or maybe both a indo-european and dravidian speaking peoples were involved in it. I have a hunch it was the Aryans who pushed them deeper into the south of India, where they mixed with the aborigines. This is nineteen century European mythology, even if aryans (indo-europeans) came to india after dravidians, why would aryans have push dravidians down into south india, why wouldn't they(dravidians) do it themselves before the coming of indo-europeans, without the push of force. Till date there is no credible archaeological evidence to support the Aryan Invasion Theory(ATI), it most likely was large-scale Migration than an Invasion. Rig-Veda is only the evidence used in proposing an Aryan Invasion, and that's pretty bad because this very poetic religious book. Here's an example: [ftp]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasa [/ftp] Even the Vedda (of whom the Veddoid type was named) speak an Indo-European language. The veddas in sri-lanka mixed heavily in culture, religion and genes with the Sinhalese. The Sinhalese were foreigners who came from north-india. The veddas must have lost their orinigal mother-tongue in this process. Also If anybody even seen pictures of Veddas, you will find they are not a homogenous looking people, they have a good range of variations(racially mixed). If the veddoid type exists in pure-forms, then you will not would find it in the veddas, but maybe some-where eles in India.
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Post by Agrippa on Nov 7, 2005 7:53:09 GMT -5
I think the story of the Dravidians is similar to the one of the Tais. The Tais had originally strong empires in central China, but after the old Chinese conquered them, they were absorbed by the Chinese culture, but parts of their elite and some elements of the folks fled South, and everytime the Chinese pushed again, this happened again. But I agree that Dravidians already expanded South before the Aryans came (like Tais did too before the Chinese btw). But again it was mainly elite domination and just parts of the folk which marched, the main body stood where he was, even after the Aryans came. So they are partly the direct descendents of pre-Aryan Dravidians in the North (Harappa, Mohenjo Daro), but speak just a new language and have a new culture partly.
The skeletons in Harappa, Mohenjo Daro showed pred. Protomediterranoids, but with older robust (Capellid) elements and Weddoid-Melanid ("Australoid") ones too in a lower percentage - therefore early mixture with locals, at least limited one, seems to be plausible.
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RUDRA
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Post by RUDRA on Nov 7, 2005 18:42:57 GMT -5
Both during the growth and after the decline of the Harappan culture, there was no archaeological demographic disruptions in the north-western regions of india. So if anything western euro-asian genes(aryans) came into pakistan much earlier. Mostly likely before or during the earilier periods of the Indus Valley civilization.
If modern-day Pakistanis had gotten most of their aryan impact after the fall of Indus Valley civilization, they would have been still distinct from the ancient Harappans. But this is far from the case, the people who created Indus Valley civilization and modern-day northwest indians share great deal together, they are almost indetical.
Kenneth Kennedy (1984), who examined 300 skeletons from the Indus Valley civilization, concludes that the ancient Harappans “are not markedly different in their skeletal biology from the present-day inhabitants of Northwestern India and Pakistan”
Also both the Indus Valley and Gandhara(anicent afghan) peoples share a high degree of biological affinity. So The face of Indus Valley civilization, is what many here would call a Nordindid.
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Post by Agrippa on Nov 8, 2005 10:01:37 GMT -5
Predominantely yes, but there is still a difference between Pathan, Kashmiri, Sikh Nordindids and some other largely Nordindid groups, you find in the former clear influence from further North at least in individuals and in general form. The impact from later IE was not as big as that of the Dravidians in the region if looking at the modern phenotypes.
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Post by $$$ FD $$$ on Nov 8, 2005 10:04:41 GMT -5
Agrippa what do you think of the bhils? - these people live in central and north western india - how would you classify them?
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