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Post by oguzarslan on Oct 25, 2005 12:41:26 GMT -5
What is skull vault.When it is said high vaulted it means high skull??can you tell me.And about lundman classification he says that Faelids(phalian,dalonordic) and Paleo-atlantids(coon or snpa s Brunn) are low skulled but i think both of them are high skulled what do you think about.And the faelids are modern cromagnids(also have high-skull)?? thanks   |
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Post by $$$ FD $$$ on Oct 25, 2005 17:11:40 GMT -5
if you post pictures - then i'll give others a chance to explain if not then i'll take over! hey! hey! hey!
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Post by asdf on Oct 25, 2005 18:17:40 GMT -5
Wait, so Eickstedt's Dalo-Nordic is Guenther's Phalian and both mean a type of cromagnid, right? I've seen people use them as though they're differen't though. And isn't the Bruenn closer to Faelid than a Paeleo-Atlantid?
(what does the prefix 'dalo' mean, anyway? And 'fenno-', too?)
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Post by Mike the Jedi on Oct 26, 2005 4:18:53 GMT -5
Wait, so Eickstedt's Dalo-Nordic is Guenther's Phalian and both mean a type of cromagnid, right? I've seen people use them as though they're differen't though. And isn't the Bruenn closer to Faelid than a Paeleo-Atlantid? Yeah, they are the same thing pretty much. Paudler's Dalic = Von Eickstedt's Dalo-Nordic/Dalofaelid = Guenther's Phalian = Coon's Brunn. I've seen people use them as though they're differen't though. Indeed, people have applied different definitions to some of these terms, unfortunately, which can result in confusion. For instance, SNPA defines Phalian as Nordic mixed with Borreby. But that's not the correct definition of the term. The correct definition is that the Phalian type is just the German version of the Irish Brunn. And isn't the Bruenn closer to Faelid than a Paeleo-Atlantid? I would say so. There are various definitions for Paleo-Atlantid, though. One definition is that they are just dark-haired Brunns. Another is that they are residual Atlanto-Mediterraneans (mixed with Brunns). (what does the prefix 'dalo' mean, anyway? And 'fenno-', too?) I'm not sure where "dalo" comes from... might come from "Dalarne," a Swedish province. "Fenno" means Finnish/Finnic. |
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Post by oguzarslan on Oct 27, 2005 11:35:19 GMT -5
yes dalo and dalic comes from dalarne region of sweden.and again i ask low vaulted is he same with low skulled and phalian brünn cromagnon races are low skulled or high skulled(for me they are all high skulled,lundman is wrong about it )
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Post by Liquid Len on Oct 30, 2005 11:36:02 GMT -5
again i ask low vaulted is he same with low skulled Yes it is. and phalian brünn cromagnon races are low skulled or high skulled(for me they are all high skulled,lundman is wrong about it ) They are low skulled. There are/were also higher skulled Cromagnids or Cromagnoids, but they are neither Dalophalian nor Paleoatlantid, nor Brünn. If you don't agree, show us some pictures with examples. Imo it's in the beginning not always that easy to tell if someone is relatively high or low vaulted. I think being relatively low vaulted doesn't necessarily imply that the occiput has to be very rounded and jutting. A good hint is always to keep an eye on the ear region and to estimate the vault height from there and not merely from the outline of the head's side view. |
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Post by Liquid Len on Nov 23, 2005 14:19:45 GMT -5
it's in the beginning not always that easy to tell if someone is relatively high or low vaulted. I think being relatively low vaulted doesn't necessarily imply that the occiput has to be very rounded and jutting. A good hint is always to keep an eye on the ear region and to estimate the vault height from there and not merely from the outline of the head's side view. Two counter-intuitive examples. Who do you think is low vaulted? This Sudanid type with his jutting, rounded occiput?  Or this planoccipital (flat-headed) Kumid guy?  |
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Post by Liquid Len on Nov 23, 2005 14:20:51 GMT -5
The measurement reveals it:   It's in fact the Kumid type. |
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Post by One Humanity on Nov 24, 2005 2:59:18 GMT -5
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Post by Liquid Len on Nov 24, 2005 7:31:28 GMT -5
Yes the vaults are different, although both are high-skulled. Well, at least according to Lundman's textual description the Kumid should be a low vaulted type. this Kumid man is not fully short-headed as well. But relatively speaking he looks very short headed, IMO:  Not only rounded occiputs are jutting. Alright, I didn't know that. They all have occipital chignons/lamboid flattening, the occiput of Piltdown being the most rounded. Is it common in the northwest of Europe? It might be one of the traits that made Coon think of Neanderthaloid admixture within the Bruenn type, resident Atlantids being related. According to Wikipedia www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Occipital_bun it is now most frequent among Lapps and Finns, and also in Bushmen and Australian Aborigines. Scaphoid with visible reminiscence to a chignon? Scaphoid? Isn't that a bone in the hand? Just this question: Would be "tented" equivalent to "Hausform"? Again tented? Sorry, I'm not familiar with these terms. You already explained that the most projecting point has limited validity for measurements. I can imagine that it's usually the most distal point from the glabella, though. Rounded but pointed seen from the bottom? Hard to tell, but I doubt it. It would probably look pointed if the inion stuck out more than the opisthocranium - but it doesn't. |
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Post by One Humanity on Nov 28, 2005 4:00:30 GMT -5
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Post by Dienekes on Nov 28, 2005 4:06:18 GMT -5
1. Galley Hill, Piltdown, La Chapelle-aux-Saints, Pithecanthropus img314.imageshack.us/img314/244/galleyhillpiltdownlachapelleau.gifThey all have occipital chignons/lamboid flattening, the occiput of Piltdown being the most rounded. Is it common in the northwest of Europe? It might be one of the traits that made Coon think of Neanderthaloid admixture within the Bruenn type, resident Atlantids being related. Galley Hill? Piltdown? Is today "discredited skull Monday"? |
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Post by One Humanity on Nov 28, 2005 4:35:00 GMT -5
Oh, I once read that Piltdown was counterfeit to be honest but it's new to me that so is Galley Hill. Good to know. This is what I found with google: Still, there's Long Barrow, also with a slight chignon: forum.skadi.net/showpost.php?p=337433&postcount=5 |
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Post by Liquid Len on Dec 27, 2005 9:14:56 GMT -5
@ Gareth Interesting informations. One of them bears a conical occiput, as mentioned by Bartucz about the dolicho- to mesocephalic type found in the cemeteries of Huns and Avars: Looks rather odd. What exactly would be the difference between conical and tented? I wish I'd have one Alpinid ancestor from southwestern Germany less. A g.grandmother of mine with the coarsest facial features. I’ve got quite a lot of very round headed Alpinoid close ancestors, even my father is one, but by chance those were the ones who left no trace on my exterior (at least considering the general shape of the head and face). height/length index = height of the vault, height/breadth index = height of the skull? That would be news to me. Usually the skull height is just the basion-bregma height, which is quite a different measurement than the auricular height. And the height-length index of the skull is calculated respectively with the basion-bregma height. But sometimes the auricular height is also measured on skulls and a second height-length index indicated. |
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Post by One Humanity on Dec 28, 2005 21:18:13 GMT -5
One of them bears a conical occiput, as mentioned by Bartucz about the dolicho- to mesocephalic type found in the cemeteries of Huns and Avars: Looks rather odd. What exactly would be the difference between conical and tented? Both means a pointy end of the occiput but coconial a rounded, tented a cornered variant? Roof-shaped apex would a another designation for 'tented'. This Kurd also has such a coconial occiput: dienekes.angeltowns.net/pictures/asiaminor/kurd2.jpgLundman wrote that high-skulled East-Mediterranids were the type of the Sumerians and these East-Mediterranids are supposed to have come from what is today Turkestan. Older layers of the Middle East are the pred. low-skullled Arabids and Syrids. Well, my Swabian grandmother looked like women painted by Renoir. She's the first from the left next to her sister (in adult age):  My grandfather's mother was perhaps Berid, the father Nordid+Gracilmediterranid. The people on the right of the picture are relatives from my Bohemian side. According Lundman, the racial make-up of the Czech Republic is Eastbaltid+East-Alpinid+Carpathid with Nordid and other admixtures. He also mentions that the "Sudeten-Race" is the same as Volgid. My mother's brother also has a shorter head than both of his parents speaking about the ratio seen in profile, from top his head might be narrower than his parents'. My granddaddy's brother:   A racial picture of a Dinarid:  My parents standing next to each other:  Thanks for the explanation. You also posted good articles in the "Anthropology Links and Literature" section. I'm currently expanding the articles-section of my new, not yet started site myself since I bought and read some anthropology books in the meantime. |
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