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Post by Cerdic on Apr 20, 2005 7:48:27 GMT -5
When the Seljuks overran Anatolia these People were either converted to islam or killed. Both Alexius I and John II The Good relocated sizable populations of Greeks from the interior of Anatolia to re-settle them in the coastlands which were under firmer Byzantine control. Some of these communities, such as those Greeks living near Beyshehir Golu west of Konya (modern names), seem to have been reluctant to move - Byzantine taxation was notoriously more efficient than that of the Seljuc Turks.
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Post by Batucan on Apr 21, 2005 3:48:52 GMT -5
I think you have to read more than Greek school books. Actually Greeks were found all over Anatolia in large numbers, not only in the West coast, Pontian Greeks inhibited the northern black sea region of modern day Turkey, there were many important colonies there, Melitus founded more than 60 cities between the Hellespont and the Crimea. Among these were: Abydos, Cyzicus(in the Dardanelles), Sinope, Olbia and Panticapaeum. Trapezus (modern day Trabzon) was founded by Greeks from the Black Sea port city of Miletus in the 8th century bc. I have to give your answer from the most important reference book of Herodotus. If you have the Herodotus book you can check it from there otherwise try online book of Herodotus from the link below. About Sinope: Herodotus Book 4 / 12 “Scythia still retains traces of the Cimmerians; there are Cimmerian castles, and a Cimmerian ferry, also a tract called Cimmeria, and a Cimmerian Bosphorus. It appears likewise that the Cimmerians, when they fled into Asia to escape the Scyths, made a settlement in the peninsula where the Greek city of Sinope was afterwards built.”<br> www.piney.com/Heredotus4.htmlBig majority of other cities that were referred as Greek cities were the old settlements established by other nations of Anatolia. For example Symrna is the name of an Amazon queen. The original name of Ephesus originated from Aphasas addressed in Hittites documents. There is an important difference between the culture of Anatolia and mainland Greece. One of the most important difference is the role of women in the society and her role in the cultural life. The temple of Artemis (which is not a Greek name too) have not been constructed in Anatolia by chance. Greeks were the late comers and colonized the old settlements in coastal regions. Luwians, Thracians, Persians, Hittites, Lydians, Lycians, Carians, Phyrigians, Cimmerians, Phonecians are the old people of Anatolia’s coastal regions. Troia who was defended by Anatolians against Greeks was certainly not a Greek city too. Trabzon has gained some Greek identity after the fall of Istanbul. Very important number of Byzantines claiming rights on Byzantine thrown had fled to Trabzon area and established a state there. Pontus state at the era of Romans have been ruled by Persians and eventhough having some tiny Greek population there it did have a Greek identity. The Greeks of Trapezus still remained in Anatolia until the last centuary but unfortionatly in 1923 the Turks deported the city's sizeable Greek population which had lived there for Millena. You have to learn that they were not deported. Don’t you know the facts? Or you are simply trying to distort them. Greeks of Anatolia have been sent to Greece according to an treaty of exchange inside of Lausanne treaty which means Turks of Greece and Greeks of Turkey have been exchanged. Turkey, Greece and many other states have ratified this international treaty. Well you think wrong, theres a remarkable similarity in craniofacial morphology between modern and ancient greek populations, modern Greeks are direct descendents of the Ancient Greeks get it, got it, good I do not think so. There is not a nation called Greek in fact. The modern nation of Greece is a group of people collected from Orthodoxs of Balkans and Anatolia; Albanians, Macedonians, Bulgars, Turks, Vallachs, Serbs etc. As far as ancient Greeks are concerned they were also heavily mixed. It is interesting but even the Greekness of Athenians is under question. Just read Herodotus. Book 1 / 56 - 57 – 58 www.piney.com/Heredotus1.html“These were the Lacedaemonians and the Athenians, the former of Doric, the latter of Ionic blood. And indeed these two nations had held from very, early times the most distinguished place in Greece, the being a Pelasgic, the other a Hellenic people, and the one having never quitted its original seats, while the other had been excessively migratory;……………………………. What the language of the Pelasgi was I cannot say with any certainty. If, however, we may form a conjecture from the tongue spoken by the Pelasgi of the present day- those, for instance, who live at Creston above the Tyrrhenians, who formerly dwelt in the district named Thessaliotis, and were neighbours of the people now called the Dorians- or those again who founded Placia and Scylace upon the Hellespont, who had previously dwelt for some time with the Athenians- or those, in short, of any other of the cities which have dropped the name but are in fact Pelasgian; if, I say, we are to form a conjecture from any of these, we must pronounce that the Pelasgi spoke a barbarous language. If this were really so, and the entire Pelasgic race spoke the same tongue, the Athenians, who were certainly Pelasgi, must have changed their language at the same time that they passed into the Hellenic body; for it is a certain fact that the people of Creston speak a language unlike any of their neighbours, and the same is true of the Placianians, while the language spoken by these two people is the same; which shows that they both retain the idiom which they brought with them into the countries where they are now settled.”<br> As you see Athenians were Pelasgi who were speaking a different language. He refers Ionians as Pelasg too. This part of the book is very important but often strangely neglected. But who were those Pelasgs? To learn more please read. “Traditionally, the Pelasgians have been linked with the Etruscans, Tyrrhenians and Lydians. Indeed, a stele from Kamina on the island of Lemnos appears to be written in a language which shows strong structural resemblances to Etruscan. “The Lydian language, known from surviving inscriptions of the 4th century BC, is generally regarded as being related to the Indo-European (IE) Anatolian group (Hittite/ Nesite, Palaic, Luwian); but its relatonship to this group is not clear and, even if the Lydian of the inscriptions does have an IE core, there is no doubt that its vocabulary is largely non-IE and that the language has some non-IE characteristics. There can be no doubt that a non-IE language was spoken in this area in the 2nd millennium BC and this may well have been related to Etruscan, Lemnian and Pelasgian. Some ancient writers also call the Greeks 'Pelasgian'; but this probably similar to modern usage of 'Briton' to denote an inhabitant of Great Britain even though most of them have little or no genetic connexion with the Britanni or Brittones of old and speak a language quite unconnected with that of the ancient Britons.”<br> home.freeuk.com/ray.brown/Pelasgians.htmlPelasgs were not even an IE people. You mention the biggest slaves were from Serbian, Albanian and Italian communities, you’re forgetting to mention the Greeks, Now seeing how the Turks took over Constantinople; the centre of the Greek world and Orthodox Christianity, the Turks undoubtedly took large numbers of young Christian Greek boys as slaves/Janissaries What is your information about Janissaries apart from rumors? Do you know their numbers for example? Greeks were not used in this context but of course there must be some but surely not much as you think. Moreover even if they were collected from Christians, Christianity had never belonged to a race or a nation. As I mentioned earlier they could have Turkic blood too since there were many Turkic population converted to Christian in Balkans and also in Anatolia well before Ottoman Turks arrival to the area.
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Post by mike2 on Apr 21, 2005 4:30:04 GMT -5
as far as I know. In the Iliad th Greeks were referred to as Argives, Achaeans and Danaans. The Trojans are also called Dardanians, and Troy is also called Ilion or Ilium. I doubt it that the trojans were a much different people than the Greeks. Especially the Pelasgians must have been quite similar with them. Don't forget that we are talking about Mycenian times here. Centuries later in classical Greece the Trojans were part of the Ioanian Greek legacy. like all people in western Anatolia. The Trojans were Phrygians, Indo-European speakers. Whether they looked like the Greeks or Pelasgians is a good question and might be probable, but it's not unthinkable to imagine a Nordic population in Asia Minor, either.
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Post by Salvador on Apr 21, 2005 7:24:22 GMT -5
I do not think so. There is not a nation called Greek in fact. The modern nation of Greece is a group of people collected from Orthodoxs of Balkans and Anatolia; Albanians, Macedonians, Bulgars, Turks, Vallachs, Serbs etc. As far as ancient Greeks are concerned they were also heavily mixed. It is interesting but even the Greekness of Athenians is under question. Just read Herodotus. Greeks were not a a collection of orthodox Christians in the Balkans, but Greek speaking orthodox Christians. Most of them recided in what is now Greece and western Turkey. As for the influences through the centuries. Sure some Vlachs in the Pindus mountains and some orthodox Albanians (which genetically are not much different from Greeks) have been absorbed into the Greek population. As for the Bulgars/Slav-Macedonians, I guess you could say that there might have been influences in Northern Greece. The Turks have been influenced more by the Greeks than the way around. But this does not mean that the Greek population has changed. Need I remind us that those people were not absorbed in a day, but in centuries. As for the Ancient Greeks. They were a mix of Eur-Anatolian tribes. Pelasgians, Ioanians, Aeolians, Dorians, Minoans etc. We call them Greeks because they had linguistical and cultural similarities. ALL of them have played their part in Greek history. There was no Greek nation, no much as there was any other nation in the whole world. In fact, it was the Greeks who first used the word ethnos. Todays Greeks are basically descended of the ancient Greeks, but the people they have absorbed through the centuries have left their mark.
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Post by cunjar on Apr 23, 2005 2:27:51 GMT -5
I think you have to read more than Turkish Fanatic websites I have to give your answer from the most important reference book of Herodotus. If you have the Herodotus book you can check it from there otherwise try online book of Herodotus from the link below. About Sinope: Herodotus Book 4 / 12 “Scythia still retains traces of the Cimmerians; there are Cimmerian castles, and a Cimmerian ferry, also a tract called Cimmeria, and a Cimmerian Bosphorus. It appears likewise that the Cimmerians, when they fled into Asia to escape the Scyths, made a settlement in the peninsula where the Greek city of Sinope was afterwards built.”<br> www.piney.com/Heredotus4.htmlBig majority of other cities that were referred as Greek cities were the old settlements established by other nations of Anatolia. For example Symrna is the name of an Amazon queen. The Amazons were said to be a race of warlike women who excluded men from their society. The Amazons occasionally had sexual relations with men of neighbouring states, and all male children born to them were either sent to live with their fathers or killed. The girls were trained as archers for war, and the custom of burning off the right breast was practised to facilitate bending the bow—hence the name Amazon, derived from the Greek word for breastless. In art, however, in which they are frequently represented, they are depicted as beautiful women with no apparent mutilation. Ancient art, such as that on temple friezes, vases, and sarcophagi, usually presents them in battle scenes. According to legend, they were almost constantly at war with Greece and fought other nations as well. According to one version, they were allied with the Trojans, and during the siege of Troy their queen was slain by the Greek warrior Achilles. It is not known if the Amazons were simply a myth or an existent group of people. Smyrna is one of the oldest cities in Turkey. Founded in the 11th century bc by the Aeolians, a Greek people, the city was seized by the Ionians before 688 bc. Later in the 7th century bc, Smyrna was devastated by the Lydians from Asia Minor. BTW The word Smyrna is Greek and it means "bitter " or "myrrh. The original name of Ephesus originated from Aphasas addressed in Hittites documents. You idiot, Ephesus was one of the 12 cities of Ionia, it was founded in the 11th century bc by Ionian Greeks, Although the city was first established in 6000 B.C. At that time, the plain on which the town of Selcuk is located was a protected bay with its east, south and northern sides surrounded by hills. On the shores of the bay were prehistoric settlements, one of which is located in the tumulus called Çukuriçi. This tumulus, which covers an area of approximately 4000 square meters, was on the southern edge of this bay, 400 meters from the Magnesia Gate. During excavations here by the Museum Directorate, Neolithic ruins dating back to 6000 B.C. were discovered. The buildings of the tumulus had walls of sun-dried bricks and polished grindstones. Obsidian and bronze cutting and drilling tools, arrow points, sickle blades, and stone axes were found as well. The bones of many game animals and birds, as well as mussel and oyster shells were also discovered. Thus, the settlers of Çukuriçi Tumulus are known to have been hunters and fishermen. The bay gradually filled with silt carried by the River Kaistros and the Marnas brook, coming from southeast of the city. In this way, the tumulus, which was once by the sea, now lies five kilometers from the shoreline. THE MYCENEAN PERIOD The second important prehistoric settlement in Ephesus is on Ayasuluk Hill. Until 1990, the oldest of the remains exhibited in the Ephesus Museum were from a Mycenaean tomb that was discovered during the construction of the parking area in front of the castle. After these remains, dating back to 1400-1300 B.C., were discovered, the question of whether a Mycenaean settlement might be under the hill was put forward. Because such a settlement was not found, a theory was proposed that perhaps the tomb belonged to a Mycenaean trader who had come to the area temporarily. Finally, in 1990, archeologists from the Museum found dishes shaped by hand and walls of sun-dried bricks dating back to 3000 B.C. These were not the remains that they were looking for, but this finding filled in an important gap in the history of Ephesus. Hittite writings mention "Aphasas," as capital of the Ahiyava Kingdom. Because the location of Aphasas was unknown, linguists proposed that the word "Ephesus" had been derived from "Aphasas." Scientists now believe that these ruins belong to the capital of the Ahhiyawā Kingdom, Aphasas. The Hittites adressed the Achaeans (Greek people) as Ahhiyawā. When further excavations were performed just east of the Aphasas ruins, the Mycenaean settlement was finally found as well. The Aphasas and Mycenaean settlement excavations are still in progress. So the city is much older than it was first thought, the first proper city was constructed in the 11th century bc by Ionian Greeks, it was one of the 12 cities of Ionia, Ephesus was successfully conquered by the Cimmerians in the 7th century bc; by Croesus, King of Lydia, in the 6th century; and soon after, by Cyrus the Great, King of Persia. Although a member of the Athenian empire, it sided with Sparta against Athens in the Peloponnesian War (431-404 bc). Sparta ceded it to the Persians, who were driven out by Alexander the Great in 333 bc. There is an important difference between the culture of Anatolia and mainland Greece. One of the most important difference is the role of women in the society and her role in the cultural life. The temple of Artemis (which is not a Greek name too) have not been constructed in Anatolia by chance. Wrong once again, Artemis was a Greek Goddess, in Greek mythology, One of the principal goddesses, counterpart of the Roman goddess Diana. She was the daughter of the god Zeus and Leto and the twin sister of the god Apollo. The word Artemis is completely Greek, it comes from the Greek word artemes "safe" or artamos "a butcher". Conspicuous at the head of the harbor was the great temple of Artemis, the tutelary divinity of the city. The temple stood in the Greek city of Ephesus, one of the greatest Ionian cities, on the west coast of what is now Turkey. The magnificence of this sanctuary was a proverb throughout the civilized world. The early Greek colonists built a temple to Artemis which was rebuilt and enlarged from time to time. This was the largest and most complex temple of ancient times. This building was raised on immense substructions, in consequence of the swampy nature of the ground. above:temple of artemis
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Post by cunjar on Apr 23, 2005 2:29:16 GMT -5
Greeks were the late comers and colonized the old settlements in coastal regions. Luwians, Thracians, Persians, Hittites, Lydians, Lycians, Carians, Phyrigians, Cimmerians, Phonecians are the old people of Anatolia’s coastal regions. You’re implying that Greeks were late comers to Anatolia and they did not actually make any of their own colonies in Anatolia but instead simply colonized older foreign citys. Your statements are wrong yet again, The first Greek colony in Anatolia was founded on the west coasts of the Aegean well before half the groups you have mentioned above ever went there, and none of the people you have mentioned above are native to Anatolia however some of the earliest Neolithic settlements in the Middle East have been found in Asia Minor. Troia who was defended by Anatolians against Greeks was certainly not a Greek city too. Ok, firstly, we don’t know if Troy was an actual city or just a myth, secondly just the because they were fighting against Greeks doesn’t necessarily mean they weren’t Greek themselves, Greeks fought with each other constantly in Ancient times, there was no united country called Greece, there were just kingdoms who were always in war with each other, Getting back to Troy, the city of Troy was long regarded as purely legendary, but in 1870 the German archaeologist Heinrich Schliemann began excavations that unearthed the actual stone walls and battlements of an ancient city on the mound known today as Hissarlik (“Place of Fortresses”). The most spectacular of Schliemann's discoveries at Troy was a hoard of gold, bronze, and silver objects that he named “Priam's Treasure” (formerly in the Bode Museum, Berlin, but lost since World War II). (The level from which the hoard came in fact pre-dates that which is now established as being contemporary with the Trojan War.) On the mound of Hissarlik, the following successive settlements have been determined: Troy I, an early settlement with a wall built of small stones and clay, its date being perhaps about 3000 bc; Troy II, a prehistoric fortress, with strong ramparts, a palace, and houses, dating from the 3rd millennium bc; Troy III (the level in which “Priam's Treasure” was found), IV, and V, prehistoric villages successively built on the debris of Troy II during the period from 2300 to 2000 bc; Troy VI, a fortress, including an area larger than any of the preceding settlements, with huge walls, towers, gates, and houses dating from 1900 to 1300 bc or later; Troy VIIA, a reconstruction of Troy VI, built in the later part of this period after the city had been destroyed by an earthquake; Troy VIIB and VIII, Greek villages, of simple stone houses, dating from about 1100 bc to the 1st century bc; and Troy IX, the acropolis of the Graeco-Roman city of Ilion, or New Ilion, with a temple of Athena, public buildings, and a large theatre, and existing from the 1st century bc to about ad 500. Schliemann discovered the first five settlements and identified Troy II with the Homeric Troy. Dörpfeld's discoveries, confirmed by Blegen, proved that the Homeric Troy must be identified with Troy VIIA, which was destroyed by fire in about 1260 bc, the traditional date of the Trojan War. As you can see the citys discovered in the west coast of Anatolia were Mycenaean/Greek, wheather they were Trojan or not is still in question to this very day. Trabzon has gained some Greek identity after the fall of Istanbul. Very important number of Byzantines claiming rights on Byzantine thrown had fled to Trabzon area and established a state there. Trapezus (modern Trabzon) didn’t simply gain Greek identity after the fall of Constantinople, Greeks have continuesly lived there from the time the city was founded 8th century bc, The city attained wide renown as an artistic, cultural, and commercial centre during the Middle Ages, when it was the capital of the Trebizond Empire, established in 1204 by the Byzantine emperor Alexius I Comnenus It flourished until 1461, when the empire was conquered by the Ottoman Turkish sultan, Muhammad II. The city later declined in importance. Pontus state at the era of Romans have been ruled by Persians and eventhough having some tiny Greek population there it did have a Greek identity. The city was founded by Greeks, it was conquered by many empires but still retained a Greek population and culture there.
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Post by cunjar on Apr 23, 2005 2:30:32 GMT -5
You have to learn that they were not deported. Don’t you know the facts? Or you are simply trying to distort them. Greeks of Anatolia have been sent to Greece according to an treaty of exchange inside of Lausanne treaty which means Turks of Greece and Greeks of Turkey have been exchanged. Turkey, Greece and many other states have ratified this international treaty. Umm yes they were deported, do you know your facts or are you just trying to distort them. The treaty of Lausanne had many regulations, One was to exchange populations between Greece and Turkey, this was a ridiculous rule because the Greeks that were deported from Anatolia had lived there for thousands of years and had no place in Greece. Its like me deporting you back to the steppes of Mongolia where your ancestors came from, now you wouldn’t like that would you. I do not think so. There is not a nation called Greek in fact. The modern nation of Greece is a group of people collected from Orthodoxs of Balkans and Anatolia; Albanians, Macedonians, Bulgars, Turks, Vallachs, Serbs etc. Hey Nonosh proof, wheres your proof, you say bizarre statements but have no proof to back them up As far as ancient Greeks are concerned they were also heavily mixed. It is interesting but even the Greekness of Athenians is under question. Just read Herodotus. Book 1 / 56 - 57 – 58 www.piney.com/Heredotus1.html“These were the Lacedaemonians and the Athenians, the former of Doric, the latter of Ionic blood. And indeed these two nations had held from very, early times the most distinguished place in Greece, the being a Pelasgic, the other a Hellenic people, and the one having never quitted its original seats, while the other had been excessively migratory;……………………………. What the language of the Pelasgi was I cannot say with any certainty. If, however, we may form a conjecture from the tongue spoken by the Pelasgi of the present day- those, for instance, who live at Creston above the Tyrrhenians, who formerly dwelt in the district named Thessaliotis, and were neighbours of the people now called the Dorians- or those again who founded Placia and Scylace upon the Hellespont, who had previously dwelt for some time with the Athenians- or those, in short, of any other of the cities which have dropped the name but are in fact Pelasgian; if, I say, we are to form a conjecture from any of these, we must pronounce that the Pelasgi spoke a barbarous language. If this were really so, and the entire Pelasgic race spoke the same tongue, the Athenians, who were certainly Pelasgi, must have changed their language at the same time that they passed into the Hellenic body; for it is a certain fact that the people of Creston speak a language unlike any of their neighbours, and the same is true of the Placianians, while the language spoken by these two people is the same; which shows that they both retain the idiom which they brought with them into the countries where they are now settled.”<br> As you see Athenians were Pelasgi who were speaking a different language. He refers Ionians as Pelasg too. This part of the book is very important but often strangely neglected. But who were those Pelasgs? To learn more please read. “Traditionally, the Pelasgians have been linked with the Etruscans, Tyrrhenians and Lydians. Indeed, a stele from Kamina on the island of Lemnos appears to be written in a language which shows strong structural resemblances to Etruscan. “The Lydian language, known from surviving inscriptions of the 4th century BC, is generally regarded as being related to the Indo-European (IE) Anatolian group (Hittite/ Nesite, Palaic, Luwian); but its relatonship to this group is not clear and, even if the Lydian of the inscriptions does have an IE core, there is no doubt that its vocabulary is largely non-IE and that the language has some non-IE characteristics. There can be no doubt that a non-IE language was spoken in this area in the 2nd millennium BC and this may well have been related to Etruscan, Lemnian and Pelasgian. Some ancient writers also call the Greeks 'Pelasgian'; but this probably similar to modern usage of 'Briton' to denote an inhabitant of Great Britain even though most of them have little or no genetic connexion with the Britanni or Brittones of old and speak a language quite unconnected with that of the ancient Britons.”<br> home.freeuk.com/ray.brown/Pelasgians.htmlPelasgs were not even an IE people. LOLOLOLOL Man are you seriously this stupid or are you just acting, Dorians, Ionians, Athenians were all Greeks, the Pelasgians where the pre-Hellenic natives of of ancient Greece, In the epic poems of Homer, the Pelasgians are mentioned as the inhabitants of several locations in Greece including the ancient city of Dodona in eastern Epirus, south-eastern Thrace, Argos, the Peloponnese Peninsula, and Crete. According to later writers they also inhabited Asia Minor. Some modern scholars believe that they were earlier than the Indo-European peoples of Greece, who came from eastern Thessaly in the northern part of the country; others have identified the Pelasgians as the common ancestors of the Greeks and the Italians. The term Pelasgian has been employed to designate the builders of so-called Cyclopean architecture, that is so characteristic of the massive walls of Mycenaea. The language the Pelasgians spoke is unknown and has already been discussed on Dodona here: dodona.proboards35.com/index.cgi?board=history&action=display&thread=1105760346What is your information about Janissaries apart from rumors? Do you know their numbers for example? Greeks were not used in this context but of course there must be some but surely not much as you think. Moreover even if they were collected from Christians, Christianity had never belonged to a race or a nation. As I mentioned earlier they could have Turkic blood too since there were many Turkic population converted to Christian in Balkans and also in Anatolia well before Ottoman Turks arrival to the area. What is your information on Janissaries apart from rumours???, I know more than you, for example Janissaries (Turkish yeniceri, “recruit”), standing army of the Ottoman Empire, organized by Murad I. Ottoman armies had previously been composed of Turkoman tribal levies, who were loyal to their clan leaders, but as the Ottoman polity acquired the characteristics of a state, it became necessary to have paid troops loyal only to the sultan. Next, the system of impressing Christian youths (devshirme) was instituted; converted to Islam and given the finest training, they became the elite of the army. Special laws regulated their daily life, cutting them off from civil society; they were even forbidden to marry. Devotion to such discipline made the Janissaries the scourge of Europe. These standards, however, changed with time; recruitment became lax (Muslims were admitted, too), and because of the privileges Janissaries enjoyed, their numbers swelled from about 20,000 in 1574 to some 135,000 in 1826. To supplement their salaries, the Janissaries began to pursue various trades and established strong links with civil society, thus undermining their loyalty to the ruler. In time they became kingmakers and the allies of conservative forces, opposing all reform and refusing to allow the army to be modernized. Their failure to crush the Greek insurrection in the early 1820s totally discredited them and encouraged Sultan Mahmud II to plan their elimination. When they revolted in 1826, he dissolved the corps by proclamation, putting all opposition down by force. Thousands were killed and others banished, but most were simply absorbed into the general population. Moreover even if they were collected from Christians, Christianity had never belonged to a race or a nation. I never said they did, what I said was “seeing how the Turks took over Constantinople; the centre of the Greek world and Orthodox Christianity, the Turks undoubtedly took large numbers of young Christian Greek boys as slaves/Janissaries”, they did recruit large numbers of greek boys to become Janissaries, I never said they were the only group that was recruited, there were other peoples recruited as well, but you cant deny that there were Greek Janissaries. From reading what you have read so far it seems your trying to deny Greece as a country and as a people and Greeks in Anatolia, the fact of the matter is todays Modern population of Turkey is a mix, Heres Turkeys modern race breakdown: Turkey=35% Dinaricized Mediterraneans ( Greek colonists), 20% Mediterraneans ( Aegean coast, greek colonists), 25% Irano-Afghans ( eastern Turkey, Kurds ), 20% Turanids ( original semi-oriental Turkics, inhabits continental parts of central Anatolia one of them being region around Konya ) = 35% D.M. / 25% I.A. / 20% Med. / 20% T. Only 20% of modern day Turks are Turanid, the rest are Dinarized meds, Mediteraneans and irano-Afghans, ie Greeks, Kurds and many more different nationalities who have simply converted to islam and now call themselves Turks, hey don’t be surprised if you have Greek in you too Cukumu yala, orospu cocugu! ;D
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Post by ohes on Jun 25, 2005 15:43:38 GMT -5
^Yo, internet thug, it is easy to insult people behind a computer screen. Be a man and say those words in their faces if you can or shut up.
Anyway, there are no Black Turks. There is a ver small number of "black" citizens of Turkey, who were brought to work in cotton farms in Cukurova mainly by French in 19th century. Sultan had black servants too but they were all castrated so they did not have any siblings. Back to the workers French brought, they are a very small population of around 1000, and I have never seen one of them in person. If Turkey has a African DNA of around 2%, as stated above it is a lot less than most of the European countries anyway. And I am sure most of these DNAs are found in Kurds, who are a mix of Arabs and Persians. Unfortunately, Kurds and Turks are lumped together in those statistics.
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Post by kazakuygur1988 on Jun 26, 2005 9:09:37 GMT -5
Jesus Christ all these people trying hard to claim everything to do with Greek in Cyprus pisses me off. But anyway to the guy that started this thread. Meddish. My father is a journalist on the Greek side, and he recently did a programme on CYBC2 about African Turkish Cypriots. There is a woman on the turkish side that is collecting infiormation about turkish cypriots who have obvious negroid admixture and can present photo evidence of relatives that can be classified as "black". The leading Turkish Cypriot newspaper "Kibris" published a big front page article about 2-3 weeks ago on this matter, if my memory isnt mistaken, and it is estimated that at least 2% of turkish cypriots could be classified as African Cypriots, althought the number could be higher. I hate to say this and reveal this, since I have expressed my love only for turkic peoples and i want to hint my turkic ancestry once again just to be assured of myself.... mother(uygur, kazak, tatar, german) father(linked to a turkmen clan) The revelation that shattered some of my pride was that my father told me of his grandfather "Kara huseyin" which meant dark huseyin. i saw a picture of him and he was extremely tanned , had really curly hair, and as big skull, but he had high cheekbones and also a bit yellowish oily skin. THis indicates that my dad's grandfather was mixed with turkish cypriot/turkemn(because my grandmather definitely has connection to the famous avshar alevi turkmen clan- incidentally the founder of the grey wolves alparslan turkes' father was a noble in this clan) and african cypriot. My dad told me that his grandfather told him of the legend of the family in which his grandfather kasim supposedly came from sudan and settled in cyprus. so... i hate to say this but i might have some african ancestry. :
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Post by kazakuygur1988 on Jun 26, 2005 9:18:42 GMT -5
the turkish cypriot community is obviously not full of just ottoman and alevi turkmen settlers. it also contains evidently europeans who changed their religion( eg my dad's dad was from the famous lefkara village and he had red hair and stuff, as almost all the other turkish cypriots in the village so they could have been either venetian or lusignan settlers who changed their religion to islam)- damn that's also another blow to my wish for being 100% turkic,( i guess my mom is more turkic than my dad), and also greek people who changed their religion since many turkish cypriots look like mainland greeks. the point is that there are bound to be black turkish cypriots since the turkish cypriot community before british rule simplky meant muslims in cyprus, and there were bound to be leftover ottoman african slaves and immigrant african muslims in cyprus that were absorbed into the multinational turkish cypriot community today. ne mutlu turkum diyene. btw i didnt really read all the posts so i dont know if someone already said what i just said.
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Post by kazakuygur1988 on Jun 26, 2005 9:20:35 GMT -5
kai ate tora me ton pan-ellinismo sas tora prin sas spaso
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Post by koroglu on Jul 8, 2005 20:22:40 GMT -5
Actually Greeks were found all over Anatolia in large numbers, not only in the West coast, Pontian Greeks inhibited the northern black sea region of modern day Turkey, there were many important colonies there, Melitus founded more than 60 cities between the Hellespont and the Crimea. Among these were: Abydos, Cyzicus(in the Dardanelles), Sinope, Olbia and Panticapaeum. Trapezus (modern day Trabzon) was founded by Greeks from the Black Sea port city of Miletus in the 8th century bc. This propaganda methods smells I NEVER SAW EVEN 1 GREEK WHO COME FROM TURKEY! NEVER! NOT EVEN IN TRABZON!
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Post by Mike the Jedi on Jul 8, 2005 20:33:17 GMT -5
What is the quintessential Anatolian Turk? The Anatolian Turk is a man with ties to the Central Asian Turkic invaders and to all the peoples of Anatolia that preceded them. And yes, that includes Greeks.
Turks are descended of many great peoples. I don't see how this can be construed as a bad thing.
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Post by koroglu on Jul 8, 2005 21:34:45 GMT -5
Anyway I saw no anatolian Greeks. And I think it is unrealistic that so many Greeks became Turks in few hundret years... Look the Kurds for example. They still keep their culture.
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Post by Mike the Jedi on Jul 8, 2005 22:24:19 GMT -5
Unrealistic or not, the fact is that many Turks are Altaicized Ionians just as many southern Italians and Sicilians are Italicized "Great Greeks." Greek influence is quite impressive, actually. Geneticist Luca Cavalli-Sforza used autosomes to determine and map the five principal components that account for genetic variation in Europe. The fourth element of variation that he recognized, labelled PC4, is strongly reminiscent of Greek colonization in the first millennium B.C. The Hellenes of ye olden times, the great seafarers of yore, saw the Mediterranean as a highway and not a barrier. There was little to keep them sequestered away contently in their little city states in Greece, my friend. They were all over the place and once dominated the Eastern Mediterranean. The medieval history of the Greeks is largely that of the Byzantine Empire. The coming of the Ottomans is what changed things. Ethnic identities became re-arranged.
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