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Post by AWAR on Jun 30, 2004 22:11:30 GMT -5
I too go for #1 theory. I agree 90%.
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Post by rusalka on Jul 1, 2004 0:49:22 GMT -5
In the ancient Turkic writings the semi-mythical, demi-god ancestors of the tribes are at times described with fair skin, fair hair and even blue eyes. Of course, being mythical writings, they cannot be taken at face value and applied to the whole population but it makes a statement that, these people were at least aware of such types to describe them, not to mention describing their own ancestors as such. Here's an article (in English, of course) that has some of the points addressed being discussed here. gencturkler2.8m.com/WHO/sabirzyan_tatar.htmlAnother interesting point is the appearence of Oghuz Kagan, *the* ancestor of the Turks, as far as everyone is concerned. In the myth where his birth is being narrated he is described as "his skin the color of the skies, his mouth the color of fire and his eyes the color of honey". This sounds suspiciously like Khrisna to me. Could this be a distant link to the Indo European mythology? I don't know, but just wanted to share.
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Post by Graeme on Jul 1, 2004 8:56:01 GMT -5
I always thought the Kirghiz as Mongols who in tribal alliances with Turkic speakers became Turkicized.
The Oguz are represented by Turkmen, Gagauz, Turkish and Azerbaijani. Turks include the speakers of six language groups the Oguz group being but one of these "Turks".
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Post by zemelmete on Jul 1, 2004 9:56:18 GMT -5
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Post by zemelmete on Jul 1, 2004 10:16:47 GMT -5
Finno-ugric people have not only similar languages but also way of thinking. They are peaceful, quite shy and distanced people. Finnish, estonian, khanty and other finno-ugric nationalities traditionally build their homes quite distanced each from other. Distance between khanty houses can be even many kilometres/miles. Finno-ugric national dresses usually are patterned with geometrical ornaments. They don't like to wear garish dresses. Now you see how many similarities between different finno-ugric nationalities are!
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Post by Graeme on Jul 1, 2004 10:58:11 GMT -5
Having been to Finnish Lapland I would disagree about the lack of garish clothes. The Lapps wear quite garish outfits of bright colour and odd shapes. They have a liking for leather that almost amounts to a fetish. Keeping semi domesticated deer requires a lot of territory. No wonder the dwellings are far apart. They can't exactly run home for dinner can they when out in it the sticks.
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Post by Aria88 on Jul 1, 2004 11:24:57 GMT -5
Theory #1 makes even more sense when one considers the almost complete lack of Mongolid phenotypes in Turkey and Azerbaijan. Turkmenistan, from what I gather, has more, but they are still not dominant, as in Turkic nations more closely bordering on Mongol-type folk. Most Turks on the western littoral, I am lead to believe, are of a more ancient, autochthonous, Mediterranid stock. Those of the interior and east of the country of Turkey are more Alpinid and Armenid. My GUESS is that the Alpinids might be something like the original Turkic phenotype, as Armenids would be a synthesis of old Iranian and Semitic populations. Then again, if Theory #2 is correct, then that small Mongolid martial aristocracy could have been bred out over the past millennium.
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Post by rusalka on Jul 1, 2004 11:46:44 GMT -5
Theory #1 makes even more sense when one considers the almost complete lack of Mongolid phenotypes in Turkey and Azerbaijan. True. Not much seperates the Azerbaijani from the bordering Iranians and Turkey's Turks are far from having almost any Mongoloid influence. There are Turanid types -to an extent- and those who have some Turanid admixture but expecting for a phenotype such as one from Krgyzistan is outrageous. There are simply none. Correct again. This has been also proved in the recent years by DNA research in the area. Anatolia has more or less stayed as it has been in the past thousands of years and that the majority of the population is of Old Mediterrenean substratum. To the Southwest Kurdish and Iraqi-Iranian influence is also very visible, of course. The East proper, all the way to the inner parts (excluding specific minority groupings such as the Circassian villages in Caesaria) I believe is mainly of Armenian origin-not Armenoid, but Armenian. Asiatic Alpines (as they are called, I believe) are also probably one of the most common types. I believe so too, yes. At least with most cases. The Gagauz Turks should also be mentioned, the people who live in Moldavia today, a majority of them identifying as "Gagauz" and speaking a form of Turkish which is totally intelligible in Turkey. Many Moldavians (who are of Gagauz) are working in Turkey and I was surprised to see how we could easily communicate. They don't look "Turkic" at all, and because they are Christians they are grouped in with the Slavic people, which is something they disagree with in the first place. The Gagauz I came across in Turkey were of many different types but the majority being fair skinned, not too dark haired, of somewhat stocky build -not short and stocky but well built, as well as tall-ish, even in women- with light and light mixed eyes probably as much as dark. Definitely not a gracile type.
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Post by Aria88 on Jul 1, 2004 21:53:50 GMT -5
The above would seem to demonstrate that the Turks are far from being a homogeneous ethnic group. Maybe -- I reiterate -- just maybe -- those Asiatic Alpinids are the remnant of the true Turks, but your guess is as good as mine. The Gagauz, I would venture to guess, sound UP, rather like me, though I'm Nordic-UP -- tall, fair-haired, fair-eyed, long-limbed, but with that broad UP torso, and mesocephalic.
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Post by Aria88 on Jul 1, 2004 22:07:44 GMT -5
I've seen more than once on Dodona some claiming blondism finds its genesis in the Ugrians. I don't recall ever seeing that in a scholarly work of anthropology or archaeology. Does anyone care to elaborate as extensively as possible, or to at least give references.
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Post by Melnorme on Jul 1, 2004 22:12:02 GMT -5
I've seen more than once on Dodona some claiming blondism finds its genesis in the Ugrians. I don't recall ever seeing that in a scholarly work of anthropology or archaeology. Does anyone care to elaborate as extensively as possible, or to at least give references. Blondism, AFAIK, is most common around the Baltic Sea, which includes the 'Finno-Ugrian' Finlanders and Estonians. It's possible that the Finnic speakers were more territorially widespread in this region in the past, in which case you could say that 'blondism arose amongst Finno-Ugrian populations' ( some of which were later Slavicized/Balticized/Germanicized/whatever ).
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Post by AWAR on Jul 1, 2004 22:39:58 GMT -5
Yep, not to mention that the blondest people live in the areas which are dominantly 'Uralic' in their genetic structure.
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Post by zemelmete on Jul 2, 2004 7:02:14 GMT -5
By the way blonde people exist in all finno-ugrian nationalities (including khanty and mansi). .
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Post by zemelmete on Jul 2, 2004 7:15:31 GMT -5
Of course, between khanty are much less blonde people than among finnish, but i have seen naturally blonde khanty men and women (and they have any russian admixture). Especially often blonde hair have children.
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Post by Graeme on Jul 2, 2004 10:39:59 GMT -5
There is no proof that blondism is an Ugrian trait. It is the association of extreme blondism with those circum Baltic peoples where the hypothesis comes from. Without finding the genes or alleles or lack of alleles which cause extreme blondism we will have no proof. However when evidence is found it will probably be shown to be highest or reach its maximum expressibility and penetrance to use genetic language among the Ugrians or former Ugrians like many Poles, Russians, Baltic Staters, Belorussians and of course the Finns.
zemelmete, that sounds Cardassian, blond hair in children is nigh on universal among Anglo Australians and I doubt if they are Ugrian. The problem I have with the Khanty/Mansi is that they are obviously mongoloid whatever their skin colour and the belief is that Ugrians are caucasoid. The Khanty/Mansi throw a spanner into the works of that belief.
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