Labelling lineages

[Crimson Guard]

98% of the time it is!

PS

That piece in the link was junk.

[Ilmatar]

And I'm certain that you have come to this conclusion after spending hundreds if not thousands of hours reading University (and I'm not talking about CIIS ) course books by historians defining themselves feminist. Really, not all the feminists are the same and not all the feminist "historians" are the same.

[Dienekes]

E3b2 diffused into North Africa from the east, not from the south (across the Sahara). It didn't originate in Sub-Saharan Africa but in Egypt, or perhaps the Middle East.

Sub-Saharan = originating in Sub-Saharan Africa.

E3b2 did NOT originate in Sub-Saharan Africa, but in North Africa or the Middle East.

[Planet Asia]

admin said:

E3b2 diffused into North Africa from the east, not from the south (across the Sahara). It didn't originate in Sub-Saharan Africa but in Egypt, or perhaps the Middle East.

Sub-Saharan = originating in Sub-Saharan Africa.

E3b2 did NOT originate in Sub-Saharan Africa, but in North Africa or the Middle East.

thats just the view of Arredi et al who only made that conclusion based on Peter Bellwood's theory that Afro-Asiatic diffused from East. But according to Luis et al:

"The present-day Egyptian E3b-M35 distribution most likely results from a juxtaposition of various demic episodes. Since the E3b*-M35 lineages appear to be confined mostly to the sub-Saharan populations, it is conceivable that the initial migrations toward North Africa from the south primarily involved derivative E3b-M35 lineages. These include E3b1-M78, a haplogroup especially common in Ethiopia (23%), and, perhaps, E3b2-M123 (2%), which is present as well (Underhill et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. 2002; Semino et al. 2002). The data suggest that two later expansions may have followed: one eastward along the Levantine corridor into the Near East and the other toward northwestern Africa. The extant North African and Middle Eastern distribution (Underhill et al. 2001b; Cruciani et al. 2002; present study) of these lineages suggests that both routes are associated with the dissemination of E3b1-M78. However, the E3b3-M123 chromosomes may have spread predominantly toward the east, whereas E3b2-M81, which is present in relatively high levels in Morocco (33% and 69% in Moroccan Arabs and Moroccan Berbers, respectively [Cruciani et al. 2002]), dispersed mainly to the west."

Am J Hum Genet. 2004 March; 74(3): 532–544.

[Dienekes]

The eastern origin of E3b2 is supported by genetic data and has nothing to do with "Peter Bellwood's theory"

"Haplogroup E3b2 itself shows a significant correlogram in a SAAP analysis (Sokal and Oden 1978) (fig. 4C). Furthermore, diversity within this haplogroup, measured using 15 Y-STRs (Thomas et al. 1999; Ayub et al. 2000), declines substantially towards the west (table A2 [online only]). These findings, together with the gene diversity pattern described above, are consistent with the hypothesis of a demic expansion from the Middle East."

www.pubmedcentral.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=15202071

[Planet Asia]

admin said:

The eastern origin of E3b2 is supported by genetic data and has nothing to do with "Peter Bellwood's theory"

"Haplogroup E3b2 itself shows a significant correlogram in a SAAP analysis (Sokal and Oden 1978) (fig. 4C). Furthermore, diversity within this haplogroup, measured using 15 Y-STRs (Thomas et al. 1999; Ayub et al. 2000), declines substantially towards the west (table A2 [online only]). These findings, together with the gene diversity pattern described above, are consistent with the hypothesis of a demic expansion from the Middle East."

www.pubmedcentral.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=15202071

if its origin is eastern and part of the Neolithic why is E3b2 rare in the Middle East and appears in lower frequencies than J? And Arredi's does use Bellwood's linguistic stance, its all in her study. Its older in the east part of North Africa because it took a Northern route, then went west while E3b-m123 and E3b-M78 delta went east.

[Dienekes]

bertrand said:

if its origin is eastern and part of the Neolithic why is E3b2 rare in the Middle East and appears in lower frequencies than J?

It's called a "founder effect". Frequency alone is not sufficient to determine the origin of a lineage, but rather we have to look at internal diversity within each clade.

[Ilmatar]

I gather this would be true in the case of N3 too.