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Post by Planet Asia on Dec 31, 2005 17:56:12 GMT -5
While looking through the archives of Pontikos' archive on his blog, something just hit me. As you know, Pontikos considers haplogroups E1, E2, E3a, A and B as the only authentic haplogroups indicating "Negroid" ancestry. Lets tak e alook at this frequently cited quote from Gonclaves et tal:
Y-chromosome lineages from Portugal, Madeira and Acores record elements of Sephardim and Berber ancestry.
Ann Hum Genet. 2005 Jul;69(Pt 4):443-54. Goncalves et al.
"The prescence in Portugal of both the A and E1 haplogroups may be independent from the slave trade (otherwise E3a would be well represented since it comprises the majority of West African lineages).
These findings either suggest a pre-neolithic migration from North Africa or a more recent origin from a founder population of small size that did not carry haplogroup E3a, which is a major component in North African populations today.
TMRCA for Portuguese E1 lineages estimated as 22.9 +/- 7.2 ky favors the first scenario"
The key words here are pre-NEOLITHIC and the TMRCA of 22.9+/-7.2 ky. Lets now see how this plays against Pontikos labelling haplogroups as sub-Saharan and Negroid. The presence of E1 and A in Portgual that indicates that it must have been in North Africa before Portugal. Observe the TMRCA for haplogroup E3b2-M81[which is derived from sub-Saharan Africa] the so-called "Berber haplogroup", it *POST DATES* the presence of A and E1 in North Africa which means phylogenetically speaking, E3b2-M81 is more recent "sub-Saharan derived" than A and E1 in North Africa because both are older.
Now based on that data how should one define A and E1 in North Africa? I hope everyone sees the dumb logic in labelling certain lineages, especially the most restricted, as authentically "Negroid" or "Caucasoid"? Does A and E1 draw North Africans closer to "Negroids" or is it E3b2-M81, which is more recently derived from sub-saharan E3b*?
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Post by human2 on Dec 31, 2005 18:51:57 GMT -5
It's snowing right now where I live. If I were you at this moment, I'd go outside and see how wonderous life is.. and how little anything regarding race has to do with it.
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Post by Planet Asia on Dec 31, 2005 19:01:34 GMT -5
It's snowing right now where I live. If I were you at this moment, I'd go outside and see how wonderous life is.. and how little anything regarding race has to do with it. I just enjoyed some home cooked soul food with my parents, so I'm enjoying the new year. This is merely a post I had thought about creating but didn't a while back.
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Post by Planet Asia on Dec 31, 2005 20:36:32 GMT -5
^^ up
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Post by Planet Asia on Jan 1, 2006 4:48:31 GMT -5
^^up
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Post by Planet Asia on Jan 1, 2006 15:18:57 GMT -5
^^up
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Post by Planet Asia on Jan 15, 2006 9:46:06 GMT -5
^^ still no answer
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Post by annienormanna on Jan 15, 2006 14:10:50 GMT -5
Here's one: darkmother.net/pages.cfm?ID=8&mm=1Fascinating site about Europe's African past. The artifacts alone should get open minded people thinking. E types appear from South Africa into central Europe (see "the Black Madonna"), appearing, albeit in a small percentage, among proto-European Basques. In fact, E occurs in greater percentage among Levantines than among Ethiopians. See Nature, 598 | AUGUST 2003 | VOLUME 4 THE HUMAN Y CHROMOSOME: AN EVOLUTIONARY MARKER COMES OF AGE Mark A. Jobling and Chris Tyler-Smith Man calm your ass down, don't get mad I don't your sistah (But supposin' she said she loved me) Would you still love her Or would you dismiss her What is pure? Who is pure? Is it European state of being, I'm not sure If the whole world was to come Thru peace and love Then what would we be made of? Man calm your ass down, don't get mad I don't your sistah (But supposin' she said she loved me) Would you still love her Or would you dismiss her What is pure? Who is pure? Is it European state of being, I'm not sure If the whole world was to come Thru peace and love Then what would we made of? - Fear of a Black Planet- Public Enemy
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Post by eufrenio on Jan 15, 2006 14:22:46 GMT -5
A "feminist cultural historian"? I think I´ll pass!
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Post by annienormanna on Jan 15, 2006 14:57:15 GMT -5
A "feminist cultural historian"? I think I´ll pass! No No! You have to get past the woman's politics so you can catch a glimpse of a human vision on the particular subject matter. The fact that Feminists and Queers rule Academic Athropology should come as no surprise. They, as homo sapien groups, are trying to discover their *own* artifacts and then say something in their own words. Personally I'm a constructionist, and view these current academic trends no differently than I view Coon freaks- it's just something people do and it's artifactual. Giving me even another thing to examine "So many ways to get what you want. I use the best, I use the rest" Johnny Rotten
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Post by eufrenio on Jan 15, 2006 15:00:21 GMT -5
A "feminist cultural historian"? I think I´ll pass! No No! You have to get past the woman's politics so you can catch a glimpse of a human vision on the particular subject matter. The fact that Feminists and Queers rule Academic Athropology should come as no surprise. They, as homo sapien groups, are trying to discover their *own* artifacts and then say something in their own words. Personally I'm a constructionist, and view these current academic trends no differently than I view Coon freaks- it's just something people do and it's artifactual. Giving me even another thing to examine "So many ways to get what you want. I use the best, I use the rest" Johnny RottenYou nearly convinced me until you quoted Johnny Rotten. ;D
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Post by annienormanna on Jan 15, 2006 15:06:53 GMT -5
"So many ways to get what you want. I use the best, I use the rest" Johnny Rotten You nearly convinced me until you quoted Johnny Rotten. ;D No! but it's true! ;D
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Post by Dienekes on Jan 15, 2006 21:52:46 GMT -5
E3b2 is not Sub-Saharan African, it came from the east in the Neolithic and is found primarily in northern African Caucasoids.
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Post by Planet Asia on Jan 16, 2006 0:38:55 GMT -5
E3b2 is not Sub-Saharan African, it came from the east in the Neolithic and is found primarily in northern African Caucasoids. E3b2 is not East Neolithic but is found rare in the levant and Middle East. Arredi et al proposed that it may have came from the East along with J but either it had an origin that it broke away from the underived sub-Saharan E3b* and either spread northwest or as according to Arredi et al, it left Africa and returned. Basically there are two hypothesis for E3b2, one from Nebel et al and one from Arredi and Luis et al.
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Post by Ilmatar on Jan 16, 2006 6:07:33 GMT -5
A "feminist cultural historian"? I think I´ll pass! Most cultural historians are feminists, more or less. That doesn't necessarely mean that their work is academically worthless. Quite the contrary, there are fields of cultural history which probably wouldn't have never been studied if it hadn't been for the Marxist and the feminist scholars. So, love them or hate them, one has to give them a credit for having started the study of many issues. Liberazione della donna by Birnbaum is actually still the most quoted work on Italian feminism, though I'd say it's mostly because it was written in English.
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