Post by galvez on Dec 14, 2003 10:02:59 GMT -5
Please continue posting on this topic if you wish, especially since this forum gives Prodigal the opportunity to respond, since he was banned by Loki at Skadi.
Here is a link to the thread:
www.skadi.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6590&page=5&pp=15
Originally Posted by Prodigal Son:
In fact, according to Bunak, the Don-Sursk (Biasutti's 'Ryazan') type has 50% pure light eyes and 29% light hair (Fischer #s 8-26).
Dienekes Pontikos responded:
I don't think "Ryazan" is Biasutti's term. He explicitly mentions it as one of the types that Bunak recognizes as part of the Northern Pontic race. I don't know what the Don-Sursk type is or if it's the same as the Ryazan type.
The examples in Biasutti's book look dark-haired to me. I don't know what "pigmented" means. Bunak says that the Pontic type is most distinct in the Balkans and in the Caucasus. By implication, it's less distinct in Russia. The reason for this is probably because the Balkans and the Caucasus are border areas where the original Mediterranoid Pontic type is preserved in greater strength. In Russia it's probably modified by admixture. This is probably why Bunak says that it's Mediterranean "in the absence of admixture..." This is also why Debets thinks that it is a transitional form.
I tend to think that "Pontic Russians" means deviating from the Russian mean in a more Mediterranean direction, reflecting greater ancestry from the populations of the northern Black Sea coast. I frankly don't think there are many "Mediterranean" Russians in the strict sense.
In a sense, the situation in Russia parallels that in the British Isles where a Mediterranean element is mixed with the Nordic subrace of the Northern Europoids. Thus, you can find "Mediterraneans" in Britain, but mostly you find Mediterranean-Nordic hybrids. In some places (e.g., Wales) the Mediterranean element is stronger. In Russia, the Mediterraneans are mixed with the Baltic subrace of the Northern Europoids. Again, in some places the Mediterranean element is stronger. But in both countries most of the Mediterranean element exists in diluted form, due to the fact that it is mixed with the northern Europoid element which is dissimilar to it.
PS: The Kurgan theory is still under debate. It has many weaknesses, the two major ones are: (i) the Kurgans couldn't have conquered Old Europe without a technological advantage; horse-riding is named in this respect, however even though horses were probably ridden very early on (as bit wear on horse teeth might show), there's no evidence that they were used militarily until the end of the 2nd millennium BC. Horse-drawn chariots are useless in the terrain supposedly conquered. (ii) pastoral economies don't develop immediately from hunter gathering but from sedentary ones. Hence, the Kurgan people must have been an offshoot of some settled farming community. Either the Tripolye culture of the Ukraine, or the Maikop culture of the Caucasus is proposed as the direction from which the Kurgan people ultimately originated. But, then it makes sense to think that they got their language from that source as well. Anyway, that's a simplified way of how the argument goes.
__________________
triton hoti Hellên kai ou barbaros
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Originally Posted by Prodigal Son:
Loki has a very hard time understanding this, Dienekes. Can you please point out to him that either way the Proto-Indo-Europeans had absolutely nothing to do with Scandinavians?
Dienekes Pontikos responded:
Well, no one has seriously thought Scandinavia had anything to do with PIE culture, probably since the 19th century. As I've mentioned in a different thread, the Scandinavian population is composed of an "Atlantic" Mediterranoid element and a "Central European" Mediterranoid element plus a "Northern European" Baltic element. While I hate to mix genetics with physical anthropology, these correspond quite well with Y chromosome haplogroups R1b, I, R1a.
In Scandinavia, these three elements all offered something to the hybrid that would later be called "the Nordic race". The Atlantic element gave low heads, the Central European one gave convex noses and very narrow faces and the Baltic element gave a certain degree of robustness and depigmentation.
Much later some Germanic scholars would ignore the greater depigmentation of the Baltics and propose that the "Nordic race" was a primary race and that all depigmentation originated from this supposed primary "Nordic race". At first, this hypothetical "Nordic race" was thought to be indigenous in Scandinavia. However, when it was realized that Scandinavia was a destination and not a source of populations a new theory was formed in which the "Nordic race" came from Russia, or even deeper in Asia, apparently surfing through half the Eurasian landmass while preserving its purity and -according to some- undergoing a mysterious "mutation" that gave it its unusual blondness.
__________________
triton hoti Hellên kai ou barbaros
Here is a link to the thread:
www.skadi.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6590&page=5&pp=15
Originally Posted by Prodigal Son:
In fact, according to Bunak, the Don-Sursk (Biasutti's 'Ryazan') type has 50% pure light eyes and 29% light hair (Fischer #s 8-26).
Dienekes Pontikos responded:
I don't think "Ryazan" is Biasutti's term. He explicitly mentions it as one of the types that Bunak recognizes as part of the Northern Pontic race. I don't know what the Don-Sursk type is or if it's the same as the Ryazan type.
The examples in Biasutti's book look dark-haired to me. I don't know what "pigmented" means. Bunak says that the Pontic type is most distinct in the Balkans and in the Caucasus. By implication, it's less distinct in Russia. The reason for this is probably because the Balkans and the Caucasus are border areas where the original Mediterranoid Pontic type is preserved in greater strength. In Russia it's probably modified by admixture. This is probably why Bunak says that it's Mediterranean "in the absence of admixture..." This is also why Debets thinks that it is a transitional form.
I tend to think that "Pontic Russians" means deviating from the Russian mean in a more Mediterranean direction, reflecting greater ancestry from the populations of the northern Black Sea coast. I frankly don't think there are many "Mediterranean" Russians in the strict sense.
In a sense, the situation in Russia parallels that in the British Isles where a Mediterranean element is mixed with the Nordic subrace of the Northern Europoids. Thus, you can find "Mediterraneans" in Britain, but mostly you find Mediterranean-Nordic hybrids. In some places (e.g., Wales) the Mediterranean element is stronger. In Russia, the Mediterraneans are mixed with the Baltic subrace of the Northern Europoids. Again, in some places the Mediterranean element is stronger. But in both countries most of the Mediterranean element exists in diluted form, due to the fact that it is mixed with the northern Europoid element which is dissimilar to it.
PS: The Kurgan theory is still under debate. It has many weaknesses, the two major ones are: (i) the Kurgans couldn't have conquered Old Europe without a technological advantage; horse-riding is named in this respect, however even though horses were probably ridden very early on (as bit wear on horse teeth might show), there's no evidence that they were used militarily until the end of the 2nd millennium BC. Horse-drawn chariots are useless in the terrain supposedly conquered. (ii) pastoral economies don't develop immediately from hunter gathering but from sedentary ones. Hence, the Kurgan people must have been an offshoot of some settled farming community. Either the Tripolye culture of the Ukraine, or the Maikop culture of the Caucasus is proposed as the direction from which the Kurgan people ultimately originated. But, then it makes sense to think that they got their language from that source as well. Anyway, that's a simplified way of how the argument goes.
__________________
triton hoti Hellên kai ou barbaros
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Originally Posted by Prodigal Son:
Loki has a very hard time understanding this, Dienekes. Can you please point out to him that either way the Proto-Indo-Europeans had absolutely nothing to do with Scandinavians?
Dienekes Pontikos responded:
Well, no one has seriously thought Scandinavia had anything to do with PIE culture, probably since the 19th century. As I've mentioned in a different thread, the Scandinavian population is composed of an "Atlantic" Mediterranoid element and a "Central European" Mediterranoid element plus a "Northern European" Baltic element. While I hate to mix genetics with physical anthropology, these correspond quite well with Y chromosome haplogroups R1b, I, R1a.
In Scandinavia, these three elements all offered something to the hybrid that would later be called "the Nordic race". The Atlantic element gave low heads, the Central European one gave convex noses and very narrow faces and the Baltic element gave a certain degree of robustness and depigmentation.
Much later some Germanic scholars would ignore the greater depigmentation of the Baltics and propose that the "Nordic race" was a primary race and that all depigmentation originated from this supposed primary "Nordic race". At first, this hypothetical "Nordic race" was thought to be indigenous in Scandinavia. However, when it was realized that Scandinavia was a destination and not a source of populations a new theory was formed in which the "Nordic race" came from Russia, or even deeper in Asia, apparently surfing through half the Eurasian landmass while preserving its purity and -according to some- undergoing a mysterious "mutation" that gave it its unusual blondness.
__________________
triton hoti Hellên kai ou barbaros
. Tell you what; I'll catch some sleep, and respond in length as soon as I am able. 
