Med influence in northern Europe: I or R1b?

[Polako]

Some silly people like to go on about how the populations that carried Hg I into Scandinavia were gracile Mediterraneans that then helped to form the Nordic phenotype. As we now know, I is related to J, which comes from the Near East, hence the presumed Mediterranean theory.

At the same time they say that those who carried R1b were broad faced Cro-Magnon types. Pffff...

This is rubbish in light of the fact that R1b is the marker of the populations on the Atlantic fringe of Europe: the most long-headed and Mediterranean-looking on the whole continent.

So it's pretty obvious that, in Scandinavia, the Mediterranean element comes from the carriers of R1b, while I think that the blonder Baltid element is associated with R1a. Then we also have some Tat-C, which is probably responsible for the minority East Baltic and Uralic element.

However, I is the most common HG in Scandinavia. So what phenotype can we link it to?

Well I think that it's linked to a very common Scandinavian look...very tall and robust, with deep jaws and deep set eyes. Basically, a Cro-Magnid type that some might call a mix of Nordid and Cro-Magnon.

Because even though I is related J, it's a true European marker. In fact, it was the predecessor of I that found its way into the Balkans, from which I most probably spread.

If we look at those who carry I in parts of Europe other than Scandinavia, they hardly come out looking as gracile Meds. They're most definitely robust, and very tall Cro-Magnon types. Just look at Polish Carpathian mountainers, Croats, or Ukranians.

[ndrthl]

i dont think phenotypes should be necessarily correlated with haplogroups, especially to detect external differences within a given race (like the european caucasoid types, f.e).

[Glenlivet]

Indeed, haplogroups among Europids do not necessarily correlate with a certain phenotype. You may compare Y-chromosome haplogroups among North Indians and some Eastern Slavs and northern Iberians and Irishmen. The phenotypical similarities are not exactly striking.

It is probably useful in tracing human migration but autosomal DNA seem to show a greater relation with phenotype.

DNA witness - validation

www.dnawitness.net/validation.htm#blind

I would like to hear what Dienekes has to say.

[wendland]

The phenotypes could have appeared later than the haplotypes anyway. What about phenotypes originating due to certain mixtures of haplotypes? I with r1b, or I with r1a, etc... would lead to certain phenotypes being predominant in a population, just speculation...

[Polako]

Blah, blah, blah...

Phenotypes can not be correlated with haolpgorups in individuals. BUT there are clear links between phenotypes and haplogroups where populations are concerned.

It's a probability thing. Of course I'm not suggesting that Y-chromosome haplogroups are linked to phenotypes, or even any physical characteristics. But they are linke to populations that carried them.

Get it?

[Ilmatar]

I gather you are familiar with the study by Semino et al. about the origins of Y-chromosome hg I in Europe. I found it very interesting.

hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG_2004_v75_Semino.pdf

If there was a correlation between the phenotype and haplogroups - which I doubt, since phenotype can drastically change in course of just a couple of hundreds of years, while as the haplogroups date back thousands of years - then I'd say that the original I carriers where probably relatively fair and tall. As you said, there is another concentration of Y-chromosome hg I in Balkan, where one can find some of the tallest people in the World. However, it's possible that the mutation defining I1a first appeared further North, and there seem to be variants of I1a which are found almost exclusively in Nordic countries:

www.northwestanalysis.net/

[Polako]

cheeks said:

I gather you are familiar with the study by Semino et al. about the origins of Y-chromosome hg I in Europe. I found it very interesting.

hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG_2004_v75_Semino.pdf

If there was a correlation between the phenotype and haplogroups - which I doubt, since phenotype can drastically change in course of just a couple of hundreds of years, while as the haplogroups date back thousands of years - then I'd say that the original I carriers where probably relatively fair and tall. As you said, there is another concentration of Y-chromosome hg I in Balkan, where one can find some of the tallest people in the World. However, it's possible that the mutation defining I1a first appeared further North, and there seem to be variants of I1a which are found almost exclusively in Nordic countries:

www.northwestanalysis.net/

Yes, I know, the I in the north is I1a and I1c.

Phenotypes can change drastically over a generation or two.

Nevertheless, the I carriers did have some impact on what modern north Europeans look like. They brought genes that now give these populations certain characteristics under certain environmental and social conditions.

There is no doubt these northerners would've looked different if not for the contribution from the populations that carried I up north.

[Ilmatar]

I'm currently studying the prehistory of Scandinavia. One should remember that the area was populated relatively late.
Therefore I tend to think that the population gentists who assume that a certain marker was brought to the region by a group carrying just that particular marker are somewhat simplifying matters. For instance, it's quite possible first Scandinavians were already carrying several I subgroups, R1b and even R1a, all found in the area.

[Dienekes]

You are forgetting of course that I1a and I1c, which are the common Germanic haplogroups reached Scandinavia from Franco-Cantabria, by following the Atlantic coast.

[Dienekes]

polako said:

Some silly people like to go on about how the populations that carried Hg I into Scandinavia were gracile Mediterraneans that then helped to form the Nordic phenotype. As we now know, I is related to J, which comes from the Near East, hence the presumed Mediterranean theory.

Which silly people are you referring to?

[Dienekes]

cheeks said:

then I'd say that the original I carriers where probably relatively fair and tall.

No evidence of that, since haplogroup I and all its known subclades originated in southern Europe.

[Polako]

admin said:

polako said:

Some silly people like to go on about how the populations that carried Hg I into Scandinavia were gracile Mediterraneans that then helped to form the Nordic phenotype. As we now know, I is related to J, which comes from the Near East, hence the presumed Mediterranean theory.

Which silly people are you referring to?

Oh, no one in particular.

[Ilmatar]

admin said:

cheeks said:

then I'd say that the original I carriers where probably relatively fair and tall.

No evidence of that, since haplogroup I and all its known subclades originated in southern Europe.

If you read my post more carefully you'd see I agree with you. On the other hand, there's no evidence that people who first brought I to Scandinavia were looking anything like the current Southern Europeans either. Hg I was probably introduced to Sweden and Norway from Denmark / Northern Germany, where hunter-gatherers baring it might have been living for millenia.

BTW, archeologists have found a well preserved human remains buried in a pit in Barum, Scania. According to the latest data they belonged to a 150 cm tall woman, who had given birth to 10-12 children before dying at the age of 35 some 9000 years ago. She seems dolichocephalic here, but it's impossible to say more about her looks:

www.raa.se/press/press2004/040427eng.asp