Post by Polako on Jul 26, 2004 11:04:46 GMT -5
From Dienekes' site. Not sure what to make of this. I've heard stories about Odin coming from the east before, but no one has ever put a genetic spin on the theory.
So if much of Scandinavian R1a originated in central Asia, then where did the Polish R1a originate? Apparently it's a very different sub-clade.
"There has been quite a bit of interest shown in the work that Ellen, Brian
and I have been doing, so I will offer an overview of the matter, including
what might turn out to be a very controversial thesis. Good luck to those
who wish to refute it since the evidence from history, archaeology, and
genetics is entirely consistent.
This study began when I noted that my
R1a uncle, whose ancestry is from the Norse colony of the Shetland Islands,
had 33 close matches with the Altai of Central Asia, and only a scattering
of others (e.g., India, China, and very few in Europe). Others from Shetland
also had similar match patterns. Then a participant was assigned to haplogroup
Q which is found only in Central Asia (Native Americans are Q3 but arose
out of the same population). Then another of my participants was placed
in haplogroup K, which is found in highest concentations in the Middle
East and particularly in Central Asia. Clearly something that had not
been previously documented was been observed here.
An extensive analysis
of R1a showed a distinct Eastern European motif, and a very different Norse
motif. The Norse patterns were bimodal in Norway proper, but in the Norse
colonies (e.g., Iceland, Shetland, Faroe Islands, as well as the UK in
general) there was a predominence of types that more closely resembled
those along the Chinese border than Poland. I have charted the modal haplotype
of many groups in Europe. Thanks to access given to me by genetic researchers
I have been in the fortunate position of having modal values of most of
the tribal groups in Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, and groups all the way to
Turkey. The highest frequency of R1a anywhere is found among people such
as the Kyrgyz, where it reaches a solid 63% of the population. It was
spectacular to see my uncle being an almost exact match to most of the
groups in Central Asia, but bearing very little resemblance to any group
in Eastern Europe. His Altai matches were not just an anomaly.
In addition,
I plotted all the available Q signatures from Mongolia to Germany (where
there are only a scattering that would be consistent with a sprinkling
of Y chromosome left from the documented Hunnish incursions in Europe).
None - the - less the highest rate of Q was Iceland, but it is also seen
at about 4% in Shetland, Norway, and Sweden. Haplogroup Q has to contain
the most diverse haplotypes imaginable - even within a single tribal unit.
Q can make up 60% or more of some tribal groups, but 20% or less being
much more common. In Europe it is less than 1% except in Hungary where
it may reach 3% (the Hun incursions would likely explain this finding).
K
is even more rare, although less than 1% in Europe it reaches 12% among
Mongolians. In Europe it is very spotty, but is recorded in Norway, Sweden,
the Faroe Islands and Shetland.
In my quest to find the best haplotype
match to my 3 Shetland participants, the only location which fit all three
was the Azeri of Azerbaijan. This will take on great significance as we
shall soon see.
There is ample archaeological and historical data on the
tribes of Central Asia who moved on horseback in successive waves across
the steepes from Kazakhstan to the Black Sea and beyond. There were the
Scythians (whose elaborate mound burials were the subject of a 2003 National
Geographical special), and subsequent groups of the same cultural backgroud
who took the same route, displacing or absorbing their predecessors - the
Cimmerians, the Sarmatians (Jagyres, Roxilani, and the Alans also known
as the Ases) the Sakas, and the Huns.
Meanwhile in the 1st Century AD a group of Osterogoths moved from Sweden
to Poland and made a relentless march south (all amply shown by the archaeological
record) to reach the Don River which empties into the Black Sea via the
Sea of Azov. By 362 AD there were three groups of people in the region,
the Osterogoths between the Danube and the Don, and the Alani (Ases) east
of the Don down to the Caucasus Mountains, and the recently arrived Huns
north of the Alans also on the east side of the Don. The Huns and Alans
then absorbed the Osterogoths pushing the latter's western cousins across
the Danube poised in turn to become the barbarians at the gates of Rome.
Meanwhile those in the area of the Black Sea had become a melange and
out of this "chaos" emerged a Hunnish leader known as Uldin. He is the
first documented Hun or Alani "king" and he won many battles, and there
are stories of how he used a severed head for warning the people at Adrianople
of what was to come. He at!
tacked
Roman territories, achieved great notariety,
but disappeared from the historical record in 408 when the combined Germanic
and Hunnish peoples moved north.
The Prose Eddas and the Heimskringla written
from historical sources available to the Icelander Snorri Sturluson are
fascinating in the detail about Norse history offered - including very
specific information that can be verified. Since he, as was then the scaldic
tradition, wrote stories of mythical deeds he is written off as a writer
of fiction, not fact. Many over the years have challenged these assumptions,
including the most recent, Thor Heyerdahl who actually brought back to
Norway the tribesmen he believed to be the ancestors of the Norse aristocracy
(the Azeri of Azerbaijan).
Basically Snorri said that the ancestors of
the Norse kings resided east of the river Don, and were led by Odin, who
had vast holdings south of the Ural Mountains. He and his people were
known as Ases, or Asir, and after many battles (in one case his possession
of a severed head is emphasized), he left two brothers in charge of his
main power base along a ridge of the Caucasus Mountains (Asgaard - likely
Chasgar) and with his people headed north. Most, however were men as apprently
they took "women of the land" in Scandanavia as wives.
When he reached
Sweden he negotiated a power sharing arrangement with then King Gyfir who
was made a deal he could not refuse (the Aser / Ases having a mighty army)
and Odin lived at Gamla Uppsala on Lake Malar in Sweden where he died and
was buried. This would have been approximately 450 AD. There are 3 burial
mounds (an old Scythian burial tradition not seen in Sweden until then)
at Gamla Uppsala dated to the 5th and 6th Centuries and associated with
descendants of Odin mentioned in the Yngling Sagas.
It seems that the people
noted by Snorri the Ases (Alans), or Asir may have been the Azer (which
means Fire in Persian and High in Turkic), ancestors to the Azerbaijanis.
Recall that of all the groups anywhere only the Azeri sample contained
individuals whose haplotypes were very similar to the three Shetland participants.
As a matter of fact the Azeri K was a 10/11 match to the Shetland participant.
These were perhaps the group led by the "two brothers" of Odin, who in
recent times have seen large scale migrations of Middle Eastern peoples
such that presently the dominant presently is J.
In Scandanavia I estimate
that about 40% of the R1a, and all of the Q and K can be traced to the
Alani - Hun migration in the early 400s BC.
Concerning R1a, the three
markers of most consequence in teasing out the European variety in Norway
from the Asian type appear to be DYS19, DYS389i,ii, and YCAIIa,b. Others
also have predictive value (but oddly, none in the second panel of 13 markers)
and I will be developing an algorithm to separate out the R1a Norwegians
who closely resemble the Eastern Europeans (also seen in their match profile
in the Haplogroup Database of FTDNA), from those whose ancestors appear
to have originated in Kazakhstan. All of this information with specific
modal haplotypes of every conceivable population for R1a, Q, and K will
soon be avaiable on my website (if permission can be granted to publish
summaries of the data owned by genetic researchers).
I am hoping that Ellen
and Brian can show that Ashkenazi and Levite Jews have a similar genetic
profile with some originating in Eastern Europe, and others among the same
group of people who left Kazakhstan and merged with the Norse, but the
ancestors of some Jews headed in a southerly direction.
Regretfully the
above story is of necessity abridged and so the full weight of evidence
cannot be seen. There is so much more that can only be told with the modal
haplotype tables I have created for each population unit (e.g., tribal
groups along the Chinese border). Hopefully this brief expose will heighten
interest and tide those interested over until I obtain permission to publish
the modal haplotypes found in the unpublished databases. The authors were
kind enough to send me the SNP and haplotype of every participant in their
studies of Central and Western Asia. Now if every paper was like that
of Cinnioglu (2004) for Turkey, and Helgason (2000) for Iceland - models
for studies that follow - there would not be a delay. When Jim Wilson
and I do our studies of Norway, Scotland, etc. we will be using SNPs, 37
marker haplotypes, surnames and will publish every single haplotype with
surname and SNP marker (or make it available via a URL).
Although some
of you may feel the urge to critique this thesis, I would ask you to hold
off until you have seen the 40 page report I have created."
archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2004-07/1090823397
So if much of Scandinavian R1a originated in central Asia, then where did the Polish R1a originate? Apparently it's a very different sub-clade.
"There has been quite a bit of interest shown in the work that Ellen, Brian
and I have been doing, so I will offer an overview of the matter, including
what might turn out to be a very controversial thesis. Good luck to those
who wish to refute it since the evidence from history, archaeology, and
genetics is entirely consistent.
This study began when I noted that my
R1a uncle, whose ancestry is from the Norse colony of the Shetland Islands,
had 33 close matches with the Altai of Central Asia, and only a scattering
of others (e.g., India, China, and very few in Europe). Others from Shetland
also had similar match patterns. Then a participant was assigned to haplogroup
Q which is found only in Central Asia (Native Americans are Q3 but arose
out of the same population). Then another of my participants was placed
in haplogroup K, which is found in highest concentations in the Middle
East and particularly in Central Asia. Clearly something that had not
been previously documented was been observed here.
An extensive analysis
of R1a showed a distinct Eastern European motif, and a very different Norse
motif. The Norse patterns were bimodal in Norway proper, but in the Norse
colonies (e.g., Iceland, Shetland, Faroe Islands, as well as the UK in
general) there was a predominence of types that more closely resembled
those along the Chinese border than Poland. I have charted the modal haplotype
of many groups in Europe. Thanks to access given to me by genetic researchers
I have been in the fortunate position of having modal values of most of
the tribal groups in Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, and groups all the way to
Turkey. The highest frequency of R1a anywhere is found among people such
as the Kyrgyz, where it reaches a solid 63% of the population. It was
spectacular to see my uncle being an almost exact match to most of the
groups in Central Asia, but bearing very little resemblance to any group
in Eastern Europe. His Altai matches were not just an anomaly.
In addition,
I plotted all the available Q signatures from Mongolia to Germany (where
there are only a scattering that would be consistent with a sprinkling
of Y chromosome left from the documented Hunnish incursions in Europe).
None - the - less the highest rate of Q was Iceland, but it is also seen
at about 4% in Shetland, Norway, and Sweden. Haplogroup Q has to contain
the most diverse haplotypes imaginable - even within a single tribal unit.
Q can make up 60% or more of some tribal groups, but 20% or less being
much more common. In Europe it is less than 1% except in Hungary where
it may reach 3% (the Hun incursions would likely explain this finding).
K
is even more rare, although less than 1% in Europe it reaches 12% among
Mongolians. In Europe it is very spotty, but is recorded in Norway, Sweden,
the Faroe Islands and Shetland.
In my quest to find the best haplotype
match to my 3 Shetland participants, the only location which fit all three
was the Azeri of Azerbaijan. This will take on great significance as we
shall soon see.
There is ample archaeological and historical data on the
tribes of Central Asia who moved on horseback in successive waves across
the steepes from Kazakhstan to the Black Sea and beyond. There were the
Scythians (whose elaborate mound burials were the subject of a 2003 National
Geographical special), and subsequent groups of the same cultural backgroud
who took the same route, displacing or absorbing their predecessors - the
Cimmerians, the Sarmatians (Jagyres, Roxilani, and the Alans also known
as the Ases) the Sakas, and the Huns.
Meanwhile in the 1st Century AD a group of Osterogoths moved from Sweden
to Poland and made a relentless march south (all amply shown by the archaeological
record) to reach the Don River which empties into the Black Sea via the
Sea of Azov. By 362 AD there were three groups of people in the region,
the Osterogoths between the Danube and the Don, and the Alani (Ases) east
of the Don down to the Caucasus Mountains, and the recently arrived Huns
north of the Alans also on the east side of the Don. The Huns and Alans
then absorbed the Osterogoths pushing the latter's western cousins across
the Danube poised in turn to become the barbarians at the gates of Rome.
Meanwhile those in the area of the Black Sea had become a melange and
out of this "chaos" emerged a Hunnish leader known as Uldin. He is the
first documented Hun or Alani "king" and he won many battles, and there
are stories of how he used a severed head for warning the people at Adrianople
of what was to come. He at!
tacked
Roman territories, achieved great notariety,
but disappeared from the historical record in 408 when the combined Germanic
and Hunnish peoples moved north.
The Prose Eddas and the Heimskringla written
from historical sources available to the Icelander Snorri Sturluson are
fascinating in the detail about Norse history offered - including very
specific information that can be verified. Since he, as was then the scaldic
tradition, wrote stories of mythical deeds he is written off as a writer
of fiction, not fact. Many over the years have challenged these assumptions,
including the most recent, Thor Heyerdahl who actually brought back to
Norway the tribesmen he believed to be the ancestors of the Norse aristocracy
(the Azeri of Azerbaijan).
Basically Snorri said that the ancestors of
the Norse kings resided east of the river Don, and were led by Odin, who
had vast holdings south of the Ural Mountains. He and his people were
known as Ases, or Asir, and after many battles (in one case his possession
of a severed head is emphasized), he left two brothers in charge of his
main power base along a ridge of the Caucasus Mountains (Asgaard - likely
Chasgar) and with his people headed north. Most, however were men as apprently
they took "women of the land" in Scandanavia as wives.
When he reached
Sweden he negotiated a power sharing arrangement with then King Gyfir who
was made a deal he could not refuse (the Aser / Ases having a mighty army)
and Odin lived at Gamla Uppsala on Lake Malar in Sweden where he died and
was buried. This would have been approximately 450 AD. There are 3 burial
mounds (an old Scythian burial tradition not seen in Sweden until then)
at Gamla Uppsala dated to the 5th and 6th Centuries and associated with
descendants of Odin mentioned in the Yngling Sagas.
It seems that the people
noted by Snorri the Ases (Alans), or Asir may have been the Azer (which
means Fire in Persian and High in Turkic), ancestors to the Azerbaijanis.
Recall that of all the groups anywhere only the Azeri sample contained
individuals whose haplotypes were very similar to the three Shetland participants.
As a matter of fact the Azeri K was a 10/11 match to the Shetland participant.
These were perhaps the group led by the "two brothers" of Odin, who in
recent times have seen large scale migrations of Middle Eastern peoples
such that presently the dominant presently is J.
In Scandanavia I estimate
that about 40% of the R1a, and all of the Q and K can be traced to the
Alani - Hun migration in the early 400s BC.
Concerning R1a, the three
markers of most consequence in teasing out the European variety in Norway
from the Asian type appear to be DYS19, DYS389i,ii, and YCAIIa,b. Others
also have predictive value (but oddly, none in the second panel of 13 markers)
and I will be developing an algorithm to separate out the R1a Norwegians
who closely resemble the Eastern Europeans (also seen in their match profile
in the Haplogroup Database of FTDNA), from those whose ancestors appear
to have originated in Kazakhstan. All of this information with specific
modal haplotypes of every conceivable population for R1a, Q, and K will
soon be avaiable on my website (if permission can be granted to publish
summaries of the data owned by genetic researchers).
I am hoping that Ellen
and Brian can show that Ashkenazi and Levite Jews have a similar genetic
profile with some originating in Eastern Europe, and others among the same
group of people who left Kazakhstan and merged with the Norse, but the
ancestors of some Jews headed in a southerly direction.
Regretfully the
above story is of necessity abridged and so the full weight of evidence
cannot be seen. There is so much more that can only be told with the modal
haplotype tables I have created for each population unit (e.g., tribal
groups along the Chinese border). Hopefully this brief expose will heighten
interest and tide those interested over until I obtain permission to publish
the modal haplotypes found in the unpublished databases. The authors were
kind enough to send me the SNP and haplotype of every participant in their
studies of Central and Western Asia. Now if every paper was like that
of Cinnioglu (2004) for Turkey, and Helgason (2000) for Iceland - models
for studies that follow - there would not be a delay. When Jim Wilson
and I do our studies of Norway, Scotland, etc. we will be using SNPs, 37
marker haplotypes, surnames and will publish every single haplotype with
surname and SNP marker (or make it available via a URL).
Although some
of you may feel the urge to critique this thesis, I would ask you to hold
off until you have seen the 40 page report I have created."
archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2004-07/1090823397
