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Post by tphabs on Mar 20, 2004 18:00:29 GMT -5
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Post by Artemidoros on Mar 20, 2004 18:43:40 GMT -5
One person on the island of Lesbos has a sub-Saharan Y-chromosome or one out of 366 people tested in Greece. That is less than 0.003%. Why is it significant? |
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Post by tphabs on Mar 21, 2004 18:13:48 GMT -5
You're correct in that it occurs at a negligable frequency.
I simply thought it was pecuilar, that's all.
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Post by Artemidoros on Mar 22, 2004 6:23:46 GMT -5
I don't see why it is peculiar. Sub-Saharan Africans were known to the Greeks since antiquity. To the Romans too. Also I am not at all sure the ancient inhabitants of north Africa were fully caucasoid. I would have thought it amazing if they had moved to an empty land and I don't believe systematic ethnic cleansing was the order of the day. I am far from being an Afrocentrist, I am only trying to think logically.
There is bound to be a small sub-Saharan influence in southern Europeans. It is actually amazing that out of 890 Italians and Greeks tested, only one had a sub-Saharan marker. Although I believe negroid admixture in southern (and other parts of) Europe is a little higher than that and that some lines have been lost, it is an indication admixture was very small.
Studies like this actually rub shit in the face of Nordicists who call southerners mulattoes and blame the decline of Rome on Negroid admixture.
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Post by Melnorme on Mar 22, 2004 9:45:40 GMT -5
Studies like this actually rub shit in the face of Nordicists who call southerners mulattoes and blame the decline of Rome on Negroid admixture. Well, not exactly. You have to remember that many of the Nordicist-types believe that 'dark' admixture is 'dominant', so that even a smell percentage of admixture can 'mongrelize' a population. I know Arthur Kemp makes a big deal out of the small percentages in his Anon-inspired appendices. |
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Post by Artemidoros on Mar 22, 2004 18:52:57 GMT -5
Well, not exactly. You have to remember that many of the Nordicist-types believe that 'dark' admixture is 'dominant', so that even a smell percentage of admixture can 'mongrelize' a population. I know Arthur Kemp makes a big deal out of the small percentages in his Anon-inspired appendices. Yes, a drop of negroid blood can blacken a Med ocean. A bucket in an Africaner barrel will not make a scrap of difference. It must act as a catalyst in Meds and creates havoc. For some mysterious reason it just fades away in Nordics  |
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Post by galvez on Mar 22, 2004 21:38:04 GMT -5
Studies like this actually rub shit in the face of Nordicists who call southerners mulattoes and blame the decline of Rome on Negroid admixture. Actually, there are different variations to the Nordicist theme of the decline of Rome. Some claim that Rome flourished due to admixture between Nordics and Mediterraneans -- implying that Mediterraneans cannot build a great civilization without at least some Nordic admixture. Others claim that Greece and Rome flourished with decadent masses but with aristocratic classes of Nordics. In both of these cases the Nordics were supposedly bred out. Still others seem to imply that Rome was or became mixed-race and that the Renaissance -- which flourished in the North and Central parts of Italy, parts which would have been impacted by the large-scale migrations of non-Europeans which they claim to have occurred -- was merely a quirk of history. The problem with the last two interpretations, from the standpoint of "Aryanists," is that they thus give credit of many of the achievements of Western civilization to non-Aryans. The achievements of the classical world were not restricted to the aristocracy (however influential they were due to their financial well-being and leisure). Those who claim that Rome fell due to miscegenation with Negroes give mulattoes credit for the Renaissance, since the Lombard theory of theirs fails to explain the rebirth of classical culture. In terms of physical anthropology, Northern Italians are a mix of Atlanto-Mediterranean, Alpine and Dinaric, with only traces of Nordic. Blondism exists among non-Nordics. So, they remind me of the liberal cultural relativists who have very moralistic views about racism: they fail to see that the very premises they hold undermine important conclusions they have drawn, especially about their perceived (racial) opponents. All of this is based on aesthetics: those groups who I believe are attractive are not of mixed-race, and those who I believe are not are of mixed-race. It never occurs to them that maybe the group they perceive to be the most attractive wasn't the top dog of the ancient world. Thus, these individuals are forced to hold mutually incompatible views. |
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Post by Graeme on Mar 24, 2004 9:57:08 GMT -5
You people write quite good standard and colloquial English for wogs. Rub shit eh.
There is a saying about the type of people who make the most noise. It applies to the lovers of Thor, Odin and Freya or is it donner and blitzen. It is odd how these wannabes always love fixating on odd individuals who have a certain type of Y chromosome marker, maybe they are not Italians or Greek, but illegals or mixed race people or adoptees. There are lots of explanations for anomalous results and frankly they don't prove anything at all unless the researchers can prove categorically that the subject is actually a native derived from natives for many generations and that they are representative of the whole population of say Italy a country of 50+ million. The Nords on the other hand can't face up to their mongolian ancestral past. Have you noticed the animals husbanded in the Northlands; asiatic breeds of dogs (spitz) and horses? The Neolithics brought their animals with them. These West Asian animals are the basis of European breeds.
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Post by tphabs on Mar 24, 2004 23:32:31 GMT -5
Materials and Methods
2.1 The Subjects
"We analyzed blood samples from a total of 890 male subjects with known parental and granparental origins"
Anyway, rest assurred that no other sub-Saharan Y-chromosome has been detected in Italy or Greece (save for Sardinia).
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Post by Charlie Bass on Mar 28, 2004 9:40:55 GMT -5
Materials and Methods2.1 The Subjects "We analyzed blood samples from a total of 890 male subjects with known parental and granparental origins"Anyway, rest assurred that no other sub-Saharan Y-chromosome has been detected in Italy or Greece (save for Sardinia). If sub-Saharan Y-chromosones were detected would it be of any great significance? Are sub-Saharan genes some sort of a plague? |
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Post by caucasoid on Mar 28, 2004 10:05:45 GMT -5
Also I am not at all sure the ancient inhabitants of north Africa were fully caucasoid. The Fezzan certainly is not and accoring to Biasutti there are physically Negroid peoples in the Maghreb and the Sahara desert (The Fezzan contacts Hausaland, but the Negroid types of the rest of North Africa, require an explanation). |
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Post by Artemidoros on Mar 29, 2004 18:40:09 GMT -5
If sub-Saharan Y-chromosones were detected would it be of any great significance? Are sub-Saharan genes some sort of a plague? Not to me. Not in itself. What I object to, is the fact some people give any small amixture in Greeks, real or not, as the main reason for any Greek achievements, or indirectly hijack the ancient Greek civilization for their own ends. For example many Nordicists claim an imaginary Nordic elite was the driving force behind anything good in ancient Greece. Many Afrocentrists claim Africans are the ones that civilized Europe, through an ancient colonization of Greece, for which there is no evidence. My position is that admixture or no admixture our achievements and failures are ours, not the result of any brilliant or defective genes. I am also the curious type though, I want to know what actually happened, I want to give faces to all of my ancestors. I find crude or refined attempts to distract me extremely annoying. |
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SeanMichael
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Post by SeanMichael on Apr 14, 2004 12:26:02 GMT -5
For example many Nordicists claim an imaginary Nordic elite was the driving force behind anything good in ancient Greece. Many Afrocentrists claim Africans are the ones that civilized Europe, through an ancient colonization of Greece, for which there is no evidence. That's true indeed , ancient Acheans came from the area around Baltic Sea at the late bronze age , read Homer please , you'll find the proofs there. It's a bit like Aryans and Rig-Veda , it's take just to read . . . |
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Post by Graeme on Apr 16, 2004 8:14:04 GMT -5
Do you believe every thing you read? Homer, the bible, the accounts of Herodotus and Tacitus. Acheans from the Baltic! I wonder why you didn't mention Atlantis or Vinland or Disneyland?
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SeanMichael
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Post by SeanMichael on Apr 16, 2004 13:57:33 GMT -5
Do you believe every thing you read? Homer, the bible, the accounts of Herodotus and Tacitus. Acheans from the Baltic! I wonder why you didn't mention Atlantis or Vinland or Disneyland? Well Graeme I could reply by saying you're a believer in Satan , a very really existed character . . .  c'mon 1st off , why did you embrace Homer with the Bible? for second , Homer in his scripts gave us many clues for wich ancient greeks maybe came from Baltic: heroes were often heavy cloaked Ulysses at a point were dragged by a mouth of a river , then he managed to gain land thru a tidal wave Ulysses often has to face maelstroms , you know they are a characteristic of Norway In Iliade Homer writes of a very long battle between Trojans and Acheans , a battle lasted all night long , only in norther europe's junes such a battle could have been fought ... And many other clues , please read -Omero nel Baltico- by Felice Vinci. Some website in english: www.estovest.net/letture/homerbaltic.htmlwww.jesus1053.com/l2-wahl/l2-autoren/l3-spedicato/Homer-Balt.htmwww.bocksaga.de/homer_summary.htmAbout Atlantis , it's likely modern Sardinia About Vinland , at this point it's a FACT that vikings landed in america before Columbus About Disneyland , I have news for you , it do exists!it's in california , it's not a hoax , dude! |
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