Which is the Worst Religion?

[Tautalos]

I will then quote myself and present proves of each and every statement:

tautalos said:

The thing that happened in Paris had a lot to do with Islam.

All the rioters, or almost all, were Muslim.

www.jihadwatch.org/archives/008936.php

Yet, they did not damage Muslims' property, generally speaking.

www.jihadwatch.org/archives/008875.php

French authorities had to deal with Muslim clerics. Which could be the reason for that?...

www.jihadwatch.org/archives/008923.php

Muslim leaders, defying the well-established fact that the riots in France have nothing to do with Islam, order the rioters to desist in the name of Allah. ;D

A few days before, there were riots in Denmark as well. The rioters there were Palestinian and Turkish Muslims (it was the first time in Denmark that Palestinians and Turks cooperated in something, what a lovely example of multiculturalism). Some of the young rioters were interviewed and said «We don't want the police in our area!».

www.jihadwatch.org/archives/008829.php

"This land belongs to us", declared the young rioters. Another arson attack took place sunday night.




That was most probably the same idea that the «French» Muslim rioters had in mind when they fought against the police, the firemen, everybody that had an uniform (symbol of the State). Some of those rioters were screaming «Allah is great!» while burning cars.[/quote]

www.jihadwatch.org/archives/008882.php
This site haves a video. Everybody can listen «Allah akbar!».


Also:
p081.ezboard.com/fhinduunityhinduismhottopics.showMessage?topicID=27195.topic


And, bomb-making factory:
www.jihadwatch.org/archives/008870.php

Plus, violent Islam exists in many more places... not only in France, Denmark, Belgium, Germany, England, Palestine, Irak, but also... Iran, Russia (never forget Beslan), Kashmir, India, Indonesia, Malaysia, Sudan, Egypt (in the last days of October).

Some weeks ago, there were articles in some newspapers speaking about the need to pay special attention to Muslims after Ramadan, because there is more Muslim violence in that part of the year - and that part of the year is now.

Coincidently enough, the Qur'an orders the believers to attack the infidels after Ramadan.

www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35510

www.jihadwatch.org/archives/008610.php

Wherever (in any part of the world) there is a strong Muslim community dealing with a strong non Muslim community, there is conflict.

And why? Because Islam is not tolerant. And it considers «shirk» (idolatry, polytheism, worshiping other Gods beside Allah) as the worst sin.

Concerning Jews and Christians, Islam tolerates them because they consider Islam as an evolution of both religions.
Nevertheless, Qur'an tells the believers not to accept neither Christians nor Jews as friends.

[/quote]


Sura 5:51:
“O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors".


More quotes:

Sura 4:89 “seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”


Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. (Sura 9:5)


9.123 “O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you”


Sura 8:67 “It is not fitting for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he has made a great slaughter in the land.”


Mohammed said: “No Muslim should be killed for killing a Kafir (infidel).”(Hadith vol. 9:50)



“Take not the Jews and Christians for friends ... slay the idolaters [infidels] wherever ye find them. ...Fight against those who ... believe not in Allah nor the Last Day” (Sura 5:51; 9:5,29,41) .


P.S.: This was not written in Hollywood.

[syriano]

jihadwatch.org

first thing in quran, it's very easy to take things out of content because sometimes the saying is related to an incident or an event and you have to translate the whole sora to get the real meaning. not take one verse of the sora and use it as proof (which is meant for something else)

in order for me to believe you, show me a reference from a respectable source, or an Islamic website with proper tafseer (translation) (not made by an arab veggie seller or a fanatic)

these quots you copy/paste I see all the time online. actually all this english "quran" sounds foreign to me.

you know muslims are allowed to marry Christians and Jews right? this by it self kills your claims

I think all my efforts are usless though, I don't think anybody here is listening, so I'll stop.

[nockwasright]

syriano, I bet in the quran as in every other sacred text can be read anything. This is not the point.
Also, nobody said all muslims are savages or islam is necessarily savage.

The fact that you deny the connection between islam and terrorism, islam and anti western feelings, islam and al queda, islam and paris rioters, this attitude of yours is unnerving and it's a battle you can't win not because we are bigoted fanatics but because the connection is a plain fact beyond everybody's eyes.

[Tautalos]

syriano said:

jihadwatch.org

Quite an interesting and informative site. Would who say that any of those news referred by me was invented?

first thing in quran, it's very easy to take things out of content because sometimes

Yes, yes, that's the usual talk of Muslims.
Now: I presented the quotes. Whoever wants to show it's «real meaning» just have to present another translation from the Qur'an (and, by the way, not one translation made specially for naif westerners in order to conceal the true character of Islam).

the saying is related to an incident or an event and you have to translate the whole sora to get the real meaning

I am curious to see how «Don't have jewish and christian friends» can be turned in something else «according the context». Show me.

you know muslims are allowed to marry Christians and Jews right? this by it self kills your claims

No, it does not. Muslim women can't marry with a non Muslim. Only Muslim men can marry Christian or Jewish women. And, in that case, the men are in charge. And the offspring would have to be educated in Islam.

That'w why so many Arab Muslim raped Animist black women in Darfur - to produce more Muslims. Because, according to Islam, the son of a Muslim man is a Muslim as well.

[syriano]

Quite an interesting and informative site. Would who say that any of those news referred by me was invented?

sorry, but this source is too biased
even from there, there isn't much useful stuff

so 2 turks and a palestinian caused troubles?
seems police aren't very good with them.
actually, that's something irrelevant to me as I don't know what happened and how these people think.

also from another link of yours:

"This follows two days after two Islamic radicals blew themselves up to escape arrest by Saudi police – according to a Saudi spokesman, their plotting terrorist attacks "did not respect the sanctity of holy places and the month of Ramadan."


btw, I want to make something clear. the riots were carried by muslim born people (duh). what I am arguing is that these people are not following islamic teachings in their actions. show me where in Islam this is justified or not punished?

we are talking about the religion right?

Yes, yes, that's the usual talk of Muslims.
Now: I presented the quotes. Whoever wants to show it's «real meaning» just have to present another translation from the Qur'an (and, by the way, not one translation made specially for naif westerners in order to conceal the true character of Islam).

well it's a valid argument, no?
there is official tafseer (translation) done with knowlagable muslim scholars, where it's done in relation to the situation. this tafseer is official and is taught/sold to muslims everywhere, so no it's not special edition for naive non-muslims.
are you telling me I should trust the translation of jihadwatch done by god knows who, rather than knowledgable Islamic scholars?

use the tafseer and then we talk

I am curious to see how «Don't have jewish and christian friends» can be turned in something else «according the context». Show me.

again as I said, quran is sent to the prohet on stages like before or after an event (like say a battle or whatever)
show me what the official tafseer says, and we will see the real meaning for this. (btw, I think the English translation is wrong to begin with)

No, it does not. Muslim women can't marry with a non Muslim. Only Muslim men can marry Christian or Jewish women. And, in that case, the men are in charge. And the offspring would have to be educated in Islam.

the reason as you said is because religion is transfered trhough the father (like the jews with the mohter). a woman can't raise her kids as muslim if her husband is a non-muslim.

if you wanna argue about Islam from such points of view, then we should not forget about Christianity and Judism ...

finally, if you don't come up with good sources, I wont bother to reply

[Igu]

Undoubtly, and without hestitation I voted Islam (Izan).

[Tautalos]

syriano said:

Quite an interesting and informative site. Would who say that any of those news referred by me was invented?

sorry, but this source is too biased

This source is rigorous enough until you can prove that it usually spread lies. Also, this source, Jihad Watch, uses other sources, like newspapers, magazines, etc..

even from there, there isn't much useful stuff

Yes, there is a lot of useful stuff on an everyday basis. A lot.

so 2 turks and a palestinian caused troubles?

Two as an eufemism for dozens of Turks and Palestinians capable of burning sixty cars and attack the police?
Now, that's what I call «a non biased approach». Yes Sir.

seems police aren't very good with them.

Indeed, the police aren't very good with them.
Because, if they were, if they beated them hard enough and filled the streets with blood, there would be thousands of politically correct mafias trying to punish the police.

actually, that's something irrelevant to me as I don't know what happened

Actually, it's something very relevant to me as I believe what happened and have no reason to doubt the descriptions until someone present me a more convincent version of the facts.

btw, I want to make something clear. the riots were carried by muslim born people (duh).

And that yelled «Allah is great!» while burning the cars.
And that did not touch Muslim property during the riots.
And that were contacted by Muslim authorities in order to calm them down.

Could Islam be somehow genetic?...

what I am arguing is that these people are not following islamic teachings in their actions. show me where in Islam this is justified or not punished?

Will I have to search through the internet quotes from Muslim teaching that kafirs (infidels) property is not to be respected?

there is official tafseer (translation) done with knowlagable muslim scholars,

I see. Now, show it.

are you telling me I should trust the translation of jihadwatch

It's not only by Jihad Watch, but by many others.
Also, it would be useful to you to learn what Ibn Warraq has to say. By the way, he was a Muslim - now, he is an apostate. He surely knows what was teached to him. And, meanwhile, his life is threatened because he is an apostate - yes, there are people trying to murder him because he renounced Islam.

And that death penalty punishing apostasy is a part of Islam as well.
Would you deny it?

use the tafseer and then we talk

Now, you use the tafseer and then we talk. Until then, the presented quotes are valid.

No, it does not. Muslim women can't marry with a non Muslim. Only Muslim men can marry Christian or Jewish women. And, in that case, the men are in charge. And the offspring would have to be educated in Islam.

the reason as you said is because religion is transfered trhough the father (like the jews with the mohter). a woman can't raise her kids as muslim if her husband is a non-muslim.

But a man can raise his kids as Muslims if his wife is a non-Muslim. So, the man is absolutely in charge and the wife is completely submitted.

And so, your argument that it was pemitted for Muslims to marry Jews and Christians, haves no value in this context, because it does not show any real tolerance on the Muslim side, besides being absolutely inutile to deny that according Qur'an Muslims can't have Jewish or Christian friends.

finally, if you don't come up with good sources, I wont bother to reply

Indeed, if all you can do is to deny the validity of the quotes and the news of several sources without ever presenting any quote, your replies are not needed at all.

[syriano]

you missed the most important part of my reply

btw, I want to make something clear. the riots were carried by muslim born people (duh). what I am arguing is that these people are not following islamic teachings in their actions. show me where in Islam this is justified or not punished?

we are talking about the religion right?

edit: ok I got you some stuff (i'll look for more later because I have exams)



-----------------
"Kill the mushriqeen (pagans, polytheists, kuffar) where ever you find them."
[Al-Qur’an 9:5]

explenation
. Context of verse is during battlefield
Critics of Islam actually quote this verse out of context. In order to understand the context, we need to read from verse 1 of this surah. It says that there was a peace treaty between the Muslims and the Mushriqs (pagans) of Makkah. This treaty was violated by the Mushriqs of Makkah. A period of four months was given to the Mushriqs of Makkah to make amends. Otherwise war would be declared against them. Verse 5 of Surah Taubah says:

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is oft-forgiving, Most merciful."
[Al-Qur’an 9:5]

Surah Taubah chapter 9 verse 6 gives the answer to the allegation that Islam promotes violence, brutality and bloodshed. It says:

"If one amongst the pagans ask thee for asylum,grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure that is because they are men without knowledge."
[Al-Qur’an 9:6]

The Qur’an not only says that a Mushriq seeking asylum during the battle should be granted refuge, but also that he should be escorted to a secure place. In the present international scenario, even a kind, peace-loving army General, during a battle, may let the enemy soldiers go free, if they want peace. But which army General will ever tell his soldiers, that if the enemy soldiers want peace during a battle, don’t just let them go free, but also escort them to a place of security?

www.drzakirnaik.com/pages/qanda/23.php

--------------------------------------------
here is a full article related to your question:

Does Islam really allow the killing of innocent unbelievers?

This is one misunderstanding that keeps rising up against Islam. Islam does not in anyway allow for the killing of any innocent soul. I have gathered some of the Noble Verses that I am aware of that deal directly with war and peace to shed some light upon my readers.

Noble Verses that order the killing of the enemies:

Let us look at Noble Verses 9:28-29 "O ye believe! Truly the pagans are unclear; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear povery, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, For Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of truth, from among the people of the book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Let us look at Noble Verse 9:5 "Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

As we clearly see in the above Noble Verses, the laws of killing the unbelievers or the pagans were for particular and specific times, and not for all times and all places. Notice the quotes "...after this year..." and "...when the sacred months have passed...".

It is important to know that when Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him started preaching Islam, he had to deal with 360 Arab pagan tribes at first, and he and his followers had to go through a lot of battles that were imposed upon them by the pagans who were threatened by the new System and Wonderful Religion of Islam.



Noble Verses that deal with peace:

"Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: 'O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness.' (The Noble Quran, 18:86)" In this Noble Verse we see that if the enemy wants to do us harm, then we must punish those who did us harm. Otherwise, we must treat the enemy civilians and the innocents with kindness.

Let us look at Noble Verse 45:14 "Tell those who believe, to forgive those who do not look forward to the days of Allah: It is for Him to recompense (for good or ill) each people according to what they have earned."

Let us look at Noble Verse 5:32 "...if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people..." In this Noble Verse we clearly see that Allah Almighty honors all the innocent souls that He created. Killing any innocent soul is so hated by Allah Almighty that He considers it as a crime against all of Mankind.

Let us look at Noble Verse 25:68 "Those who invoke not, with God, any other god, nor slay such life as God has made sacred except for just cause, nor commit fornication; - and any that does this (not only) meets punishment." In this Noble Verse we clearly see that Allah Almighty considers the innocent soul "sacred". He will punish those who kill the innocent souls (by throwing them in hell).

Let us look at Noble Verse 2:182 "But if anyone fears partiality or wrong-doing on the part of the testator, and makes peace between (The parties concerned), there is no wrong in him: For God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."

Let us look at Noble Verse 2:224 "And make not God's (name) an excuse in your oaths against doing good, or acting rightly, or making peace between persons; for God is One Who heareth and knoweth all things."

I'd say, this Noble Verse clearly proves my point: Let us look at Noble Verse 8:61 "But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things)." In this Noble Verse, we clearly see Allah Almighty ordering us, the Muslims, to incline toward peace when the enemy inclines toward peace. This proves that Islam is not a religion for wars, but for peace.

Allah Almighty orders Muslims in the Noble Quran to allow total freedom of choice to people and to never try to force them into Islam; "Let there be no compulsion (forcing others) in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (The Noble Quran, 2:256)" The Noble Quran prohibits Muslims to force any person into Islam. Muslims must not let people resent Islam and Muslims. They must leave people decide for themselves because the "Truth stands out clear from error...(2:256)"

Compulsion is incompatible with religion: Because (1) religion depends upon faith and will, and these would be meaningless by force; (2) Truth and Error have been so clearly shown up by the mercy of Allah Almighty that there should be no doubt in the minds of any persons of good will as to the fundamentals of faith; (3) Allah Almighty's protection is continuous, and His Plan is always to lead us from the depths of darkness into the clearest light.

In the above Noble Verses, we clearly see that Allah Almighty orders the Muslims to be forgiving to the enemies and to make peace and peace making their top priority. It is part of the Muslim's morals to be a peaceful person.

Muslims start their greetings with "As'salamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatu Allah Wa Barakatuh", which means in English "May GOD's peace, mercy and blessings be upon you."


www.answering-christianity.com/no_murder.htm

----------------------


“O you who believe! Do not take Jews and Christians as your patrons. They are patrons of their own people" 5:51

this verse was revealed after the Battle of Uhud when Muslims had a set back. At that time, a Muslim from Madinah said, "I am going to live with Jews so I shall be safe in case another attack comes on Madinah." And another person said, "I am going to live with Christians so I shall be safe in case another attack comes on Madinah." So Allah revealed this verse reminding the believers that they should not seek the protection from others, but should protect each other. (See Ibn Kathir, Al-Tafsir, vol. 2, p. 68)

___________________

25:46
“And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender.”

2:136
Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto Us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the Prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered."

[klabauter]

syriano
Yes it is true that most people who judge about Islam actually no nothing about Islam but to be honest that also counts for lots of Moslems who judge about Christianity or Judaism.
The rule of the thumb is that Anybody who wants to find something negative will find it ,anybody who wants to find something positive will find it.
Fundamentally when it comes to religion people will find exactly what they want to see in their heads. But if this projection in their head is the genuine truth is a another subject...

The Internet is full of Anti or Pro Religious Sites to comment every Site is a waste of time.

For instance here is a Site from a Iranian X Moslem who thinks Islam is pure Evil.
www.faithfreedom.org/

On the other hand here is a Pro Islam Site with more or less famous converts.
www.welcome-back.org/

[Yankel]

Are you a practicing Christian, Klabauter?

[dukeofpain]

All abrahamic religions are decadent and anti-reality.

[klabauter]

prose said:

Are you a practicing Christian, Klabauter?

This might sound bizarre but I am a Puritan by Nature and that is the reason why am fascinated by religion and that the same time my Puritan Nature makes my sceptical about Religion because I do not understand the concept of Sin and why people especially in Islam and Christianity think if they are Sin free they will be closer to God?
Just because someone does not lust for earthiness things God will be so kind and not torture him in Hell because of it? Somehow I do not get the concept because I do not view myself as being purer and closer to God just because I am leading a "Sin" free life looked out of their eyes.

Am I a practicing classical Christian? No.
Do I believe in God. YES
I guess I am a Christian by Nature with a very strong sceptical Zadokites hit.

[syriano]

klabauter said:

syriano
Yes it is true that most people who judge about Islam actually no nothing about Islam but to be honest that also counts for lots of Moslems who judge about Christianity or Judaism.
The rule of the thumb is that Anybody who wants to find something negative will find it ,anybody who wants to find something positive will find it.
Fundamentally when it comes to religion people will find exactly what they want to see in their heads. But if this projection in their head is the genuine truth is a another subject...

The Internet is full of Anti or Pro Religious Sites to comment every Site is a waste of time.

For instance here is a Site from a Iranian X Moslem who thinks Islam is pure Evil.
www.faithfreedom.org/

On the other hand here is a Pro Islam Site with more or less famous converts.
www.welcome-back.org/

yes you are right
actually the current state of the general middle easterns (in most fields) is laughable. you are wrong if you think we are very proud of this current position. we have become the among the worst and we have only our selfs to blame....
however, it's important to note that there are some foreign forces trying to make it even worse for us (still we are to blame, because we don't try to solve)

about these online pages, yes you are right. The arguing can on forever. However, they can be tricky as they only show their strenghtes, and don't show when they get defeted

here is a more pro muslim site for you ;D
www.examinethetruth.com/

and some websited responding to the faithfreedom.org


thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=120
forum.bismikaallahuma.org/viewforum.php?f=15
faithfreedom.blogspot.com/
www.examinethetruth.com/Ali_Sina_Gone_Wild.htm
www.examinethetruth.com/ali_sina_lies.htm
www.faithfreedom.com/ali_sina_exposed.html

take care

[Oldbrit]

syriano said:

actually with the increase hate for muslims among the west, you make normal muslism sympathies with terrorist (as it's evident for them that the western world hates them)

anyways, at the end it's gonna be a bloody mess

This totally stands things on their head. Muslim bad behaviour towards Kaffirs in the West (and elsewhere in the world) is indicative of their hatred for their host countries and their intolerance of those who differ from them (and who also get a lot more fun out of their lives) The Western attitude is simply that if they don't like it here they should return whence they came and good riddance, they contribute very little, many of them prefer to live parasitically of the Kuffr's taxes as in the good old days of the Caliphate or render themselves unemployable by their attitudes towards to female co-workers and/or linemanagers. Most terrorist acts in the world are committed by Islamofascists and most of their victims are other Muslims. One of the most salient characteristics of the Muslim mindset is its refusal to accept that its condition is largely due to its own behaviour and not the imagined malevolence of Kuffrdom. Is there Hinduphobia/ Buddhophobia/ Christophobia/ Judaeophobia (other than in the moonlit lands of darkness) ? Not a lot. Phobia means fear not hatred. They hate us and act on it, thus we fear them. Simple.

[Oldbrit]

[quote author=syriano board=philosophy thread=1133096916 post=1133248971I just want to clarrify something for you westerners
Allah = god
a christian Arab calls god allah
I want to see you wise guys live under real Christian and Jewish laws

Concerning Jews and Christians, Islam tolerates them because they consider Islam as an evolution of both religions.
Nevertheless, Qur'an tells the believers not to accept neither Christians nor Jews as friends.

yet they are allowed to marry them

[/quote]
Al Illah was a Mesopotamian moon god chief amongst the deities of pagan Mecca. Jah / El was the canaanite thunder god cf Zeus/Jupiter/Thor. We don't live under Christian/Jewish laws because most of us are civilised pagans who respect others' differences. Muslim women cannot choose a Dhimmi/Kuffr husband, their family will murder them.