? about genetics, evolution, and Genesis

[geo]

molika said:

We would be standing on enormously high mountains of bones from the trillions of skeletons...scientists have yet to produce these trillions of skeletons predicted by evolutionists.

"Me: Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock...
Mary: But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."

One cannot help noticing the similarities ;D

www.jhuger.com/kisshank.php

[Cerdic]

There is a fundamental flaw in Merlin's interpretation of the "Mitochondrial Eve" hypothesis. The hypothesis merely tries to date (a very debatable methodology exists about the timing of mutations in non-coding DNA) the period in time when all modern mitochondrial lineages can be traced back to a common ancestor. This in no way presumes that when the common female ancestor was alive that there were no other human females alive also. It merely states that any different mitochondrial genomes around at the time have become extinct in the period between then and now.

The Mitochondrial Eve hypothesis offers absolutely no support for a creationist viewpoint.

[Melnorme]

Cerdic said:

This in no way presumes that when the common female ancestor was alive that there were no other human females alive also.

I said this earlier, and I think he addressed it.

[SensoUnico]

merlin said he was a born again Christian. Mike says he is Christian. What I do not understand is if you are Christians why are you interested in the Jewish part of the Bible? It is just full of imaginative and sometimes insane ramblings of primitives who supposedly lived in the Holy Land. Christianity is about Christ, not stupid child stories of towers, dividing seas, colorful coats or some silly old fart sitting in a field of skeletons. Christ, the trinity, the resurrection, his ministry, the second coming, Lazarus not some fictional King like Solomon or David or some scaredycat dumbass called Gideon. I am not Jewish so the Genesis to Malachi section of the Bible is just toilet paper to me. Nothing to being Christian at all. In fact it is anti Christian. If you are really Christians not Jews then stick to the Gospels, Acts etc.

[molika]

Merlin, I also have the same question. Where are these ‘missing links’ and how long will they be ‘missing’? I would actually believe in evolution if someone where to produce a monkey/man link.

To ‘believe’ in evolution requires much more faith than it does to believe the bible, yet the bible believers are labeled as the fanatics. You cannot prove evolution anymore than you can prove creation, yet evolution is ‘science’ and creation is weak minded, unintelligent and illogical.

Geo, we will be resurrected with our whole bodies. Not our earthly ones but glorified ones. Thank God! I would hate to lug around my current one for eternity…

Nock, I do not believe in carbon dating.

Dear SU, if one says they believe the Bible is the literal word of God, then they must believe in the entire Bible. My creator God is the one of the Bible. My Lord Jesus Christ was Jewish. To be Christian means to be a Gentile and believe in Christ. Jewish believers are called Messianic Jews. Both believe in the Bible because the Old Testament contains the prophecy and leads and shows the need for Christ and the New Testament fulfills it. You cannot have one without the other.

[SensoUnico]

Yes your Jesus was born a Jew, so follow Jewish law, customs and beliefs. Otherwise you are a heretic. The Jewish part of the Bible is nonsense written by scribes, Cohanim and who knows what. Nothing to do with Christianity. Prophesies! More nonsense. A Christian can be Christian without knowing one shred of any nonsensical Jewish prophesies. Obviously you do not know that. Try reading the Bible especially about the Pharisees. You might learn something about Christianity and Jesus' missionary on Earth instead of fixating on the primitive rantings of non Christians. Your views are very arrogant and lack humility. I doubt the afterlife will be yours. Sorry.

[merlin]

SensoUnico-

I don't claim to know a huge amount about archaeology. I agree
with your opinion about how commoners' bones were treated in most societies. Even now, in New Orleans, many of their above ground crypts are only rented and if you don't keep up the rent, the bones will be shoveled out and disposed of. But it's still puzzling to me. I'm a great fan of Loren Eisley's writing, especially where he writes about the very small strata of subterranean ground that contains the remains of human civilization. It does seem like we'd run into more bones than we do. JMHO! Please don't get upset.

Actually, I'm a very nice, much loved person, successful and respected, except when I try to write about my religious scientific beliefs on the Internet. Then I'm considered (I guess by you)- to be an ignorant, mean bigot. I respect your right to express your opinion. I would hope that you would respect my right to my opinion. Surely the fact that I'm here, anxious to understand other's viewpoint and open to discussion, proves I'm not a bigot.

Vela:

We have different views of the Bible. You seem to see it as a fable- to be taken completely on faith. I see it as a collection of many books- including history, philosophy, ethics, and poetry. I illustrated my belief with two examples.

I don't see where I said your view was wrong. You are obviously right. I do believe my view of the Bible is more expansive and Iwas trying to share this belief with you.
I'm sorry if I seemed to attack you. I apologise.

Do you not see that I could say the same thing about you that you said about me-" If you don't believe exactly as I do, you're wrong." Could we not both be more open-minded?

Murphee: Interesting ideas. Thanks for sharing.

Geo: I don't understand your first statement. In the environment you describe, how could any life exist long enough to make a skeleton? Oh, I get it. You were being saracastic. Ha ha.

I see the Second Coming of God as an expression of Omnipotent God's power (this covers the reassembling of believer's bodies) , the defeat of the Age of Satan's reign on Earth, the fullfillment of God's promise of justice for all, eternal life for believers, and the end of time as we know it.

[murphee]

I used my term 'enhanced survival' not in relation to man but to lower organisms. Microorganisms are constantly evolving for enhanced survival, also it is seen in higher animals who develop camouflage in different environments.

[geo]

Dear molika the 'glorification' of human bodies lies to the fact that they will -somehow- become 'uncorruptable' so that they cannot die or get sick. You will have the same body you have now, ressurected WHOLE, without even a single hair changed (luke 21, 18).

The dead shall rise in the same way christ himshelf had risen - the people that entered the tomb the morning after his ressurection found the tomb EMPTY, his dead body was gone, ascended to the skies.

If you look at the original greek text of the corinthians, the antithesis is not between the ordinary body and a spiritual one, but between a PSYCHIC body and a spiritual one. Paul wanted to confront the Platonian conceptions of Psyche's immortality that were largery spread at the time and furthermore in the times that followed. So dont go on speaking of 'spiritual things' that 'cannot change' anymore, cause I'll say your christianity stole Platonian philosophy.



Now see, you have to explain not only from were all those bodies will appear, but how exacty will your body become... undestructable (!)

[nockwasright]

molika said:

Nock, I do not believe in carbon dating.

I can understand evolution is not "proved" as one would like to be. But carbon dating is not debated in science. If you do not believe in it it means you do not believe in chemstry. But this could lead you to a non coherent path, as I imagine in most issues you believe in chemstry. For instance you wouldn't try to estinguish a fire with gasoline. So how do you explain that chemstry works sometimes, but not for carbon dating?

BTW I think you and merlin have been treated too harshly in this thread (even if I am atheist and believe in evolution). I appreciate the attempt to discuss rationally religious matters without shielding yourselves with the "this is my faith and stop" argument.

[geo]

merlin said:

Geo: I don't understand your first statement. In the environment you describe, how could any life exist long enough to make a skeleton? Oh, I get it. You were being saracastic. Ha ha.

I was not sarcastic. Just showed you were all those notorious sceletons have gone. But you still dont accept it and rather believe that an allmighty jewish constructor god made up the universe from nothing two couples of thousands years ago...

-"In the environment you describe, how could any life exist long enough to make a skeleton?"
-"I dont know! It's your example!"

I used my term 'enhanced survival' not in relation to man but to lower organisms. Microorganisms are constantly evolving for enhanced survival, also it is seen in higher animals who develop camoflage in different environments.

Adaptation is a catholic phenomenon in nature, seen in all organic life.

[molika]

Dear SU, I am so sorry you find my statements arrogant and lacking in humility. That was not my intention.
Let me explain my belief to you as concisely as possible. You can take it or leave it. Without the Old Testament I cannot understand my need for Christ. Read the 10 commandments. Can I keep them? No. Can you?

This means I am a sinner. Without the Old Testament I would not know that I was a sinner. If I do not understand that I have sinned, I cannot understand the need for Christ. The New Testament shows me how to reconcile with God and how to gain my place in eternity with God the Father that is Christ Jesus.

When you do not believe the Old Testament you have no basis for truly needing Christ and he becomes a mere man, a good guy with some great teachings. In this circumstance it is easy for me to say I am a Christian for a season and then anytime life gets a little bit tough I can say, I knew it, that Christianity stuff is for those weak-minded goofs. I am suffering in this world, what has God or Jesus done for me?

But when you understand the consequence of your sinful life, lying, coveting, etc., is death, as explained in detail in the Old and New Testament, you look at things a bit differently. I understand that without Yeshua, The Almighty will judge me on the basis of my own deeds. My own deeds can never measure up to Elohim’s standard. I would never want to base my life in eternity on myself because I will surely not make the grade.

Thanks to Adonai and the saving grace of His Son Yeshua I can know my eternal life is guaranteed. Good thing since according to you I wouldn’t make it on my deeds alone!

[SensoUnico]

This thread was supposed to be about genetics, evolution and Genesis. So far most of the discussion has been on religious beliefs and little about genetics, evolution or even the first of the Jewish books, Genesis. Not many people read it because of all the boring begetting that goes on by Jews with those horrid sounding alien names. There are muslims, Christians, other beliefs and athiests on this board. So discussing religious beliefs will be offensive, annoying, divisive and not conducive to human cooperation. That is the way it is. My viewpoint is that you keep your religious beliefs in your home, your citidel and with your co religionists but it is like dirty laundry, I do not want to hear blasphemous, heretical or offensive beliefs which do not conform with mine. Christianity is about Jesus not the O.T which is the Torah. There are similar ramblings in the Quran. I am Christian not muslim not Jewish and I do not care about Jewish prophets, Joseph and Potiphars wife, Abimelech, Jezebel or jumping Johosaphat. All I am interested is in Christianity and Jesus. Jesus never spoke about homosexuality or unmarried mothers or evolution or anything some pseudo Christians think is Christian. Stick to real Christianity and forget the burning bush nonsense or staffs turning into snakes or writing on walls. That is not Christianity, it is Judaism.

[molika]

For Geo:
1Cor15
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"[e]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we[f] bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."[g]

55"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"[h] 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

The God of the Bible predates Plato just by a little bit.

Nock, thank you. I respect your belief in carbon dating, however, I have seen instances where carbon dating has shown objects such as snail shells of known life span to be millions of years old. That has called this procedure, not chemistry into question for me.

[SensoUnico]

Predates Plato? Are you sure about that. The oldest gospel dates from 60 CE. No-one knows how old the Jewish bits are since they were written by lots of different people, scribes, priests, Deuteronomists, but I doubt they would be that ancient. The Jews did not have a form of writing until they acquired it from the Phoenicians around 1000 BCE. But there is no proof of any religious books written back then just lots of accounting figures.