Well- and/or ill-inspired origins of religions.

[Bryce]

I'll make it short.
All religions were created by individuals or groups of individuals who were :
either well-meaning persons who understood the need to set rules (moral, legal, hygienic, etc.), especially in those remote times when ignorance and savagery held sway, even if themselves were secularists, free-thinkers, agnostics or atheists ;
or twisted minds who throve on their fellow human beings' humiliation and control.
And now, let the insults flow…<br>

[molika]

You forgot one big one, the need to explain creation/creator.

[Tautalos]

Bryce said:

I'll make it short.
All religions were created by individuals or groups of individuals who were :
either well-meaning persons who understood the need to set rules (moral, legal, hygienic, etc.), especially in those remote times when ignorance and savagery held sway, even if themselves were secularists, free-thinkers, agnostics or atheists ;

That is anachronism. Atheism and alike are products of a civilized society. The archaic traditional man did not know it.

or twisted minds who throve on their fellow human beings' humiliation and control.

Marxist bullshit.

In the first place, ancient traditional pagan religions - i.e., the first religions - were not «created» by a group of men - they «always» existed. And their primary goal was not «to control others» not even to «explain reality», but to deal with it.

[vela]

Bryce said:

I'll make it short.
All religions were created by individuals or groups of individuals who were :
either well-meaning persons who understood the need to set rules (moral, legal, hygienic, etc.), especially in those remote times when ignorance and savagery held sway, even if themselves were secularists, free-thinkers, agnostics or atheists ;
or twisted minds who throve on their fellow human beings' humiliation and control.
And now, let the insults flow…<br>

I think myth and legend precedes religion. Myths and legends were born within clans and families out of the need of new generations to learn the exploits and deeds of their ancestors.

With time (many generations) these oral traditions were gradually embellished to the point were supernatural attributes were bestowed on their ancestral central figures or main characters. Then, and only then, came the cunning and astute guys who decided to “organize” these beliefs into religions and create a hierarchical system were, obviously, they had a special, privileged position.

[fassi]

Vela said:

I think myth and legend precedes religion. Myths and legends were born within clans and families out of the need of new generations to learn the exploits and deeds of their ancestors.

With time (many generations) these oral traditions were gradually embellished to the point were supernatural attributes were bestowed on their ancestral central figures or main characters. Then, and only then, came the cunning and astute guys who decided to “organize” these beliefs into religions and create a hierarchical system were, obviously, they had a special, privileged position.

part 1


Myth and legend represent false religions but don't construct or create true religions. Myth and legend have noting to do in the case of monotheistic religions Judaism, Christianity (the original and not the falsified one's as I usually repeat) and Islam. These religions were revealed by God or Allah by the intermediate of messengers or prophets supported with proofs and miracles, to their local people and, for the last prophet Mohamed (PBUH), to all the humanity "We sent thee not save as a mercy for the peoples ".(coran 21, 107). It does not mean that prophets has not been send to Indian or Chinese peoples before Bouddisme, Confucius, …. but what happens for these people for example ?

In fact, all prophets from Adam to Mohamed, without exception, have been sent to all earth peoples in regular periods of time with the principal following message : to worship Allah or God and only him : the uniqueness of God. "Not an apostle did We send before thee without this inspiration sent by Us to him: that there is no god but I; therefore worship and serve Me" (Coran 21, 25) . Of course, behind this principle, you believe that God is the creator of everything, you believe on invisible creatures like angels, on the existence of Satan as our perpetual enemy, on the judgement day after death, on paradise and hell, on the creation of Adam, on all prophets, on holly books, and so on. Some of prophets and their believers have followed the prescriptions of precedent prophets, some were sent to renew the principle of God uniqueness and correct deviations that were happened before. In fact, between two prophets, people could usually forget or progressively forsake their faith and religious prescriptions to the benefit of Satan way or soul desires (look, for example, to the history of Prophet Josef and his brothers who were believers and their descendants, the 12 tribes of Israel who became wandered, and Allah sent his prophet Moses to guide them).

Most of people haven't believe on their prophets. Usually, their argument was : Why should we change our ancestors ideology or worshipping way. Allah answered them : "And when it is said unto them : Follow that which Allah hath revealed , they say : We follow that wherein we found our fathers . What! Even though their fathers were wholly unintelligent and had no guidance (coran 2, 170)

) ? They disbelieved their prophets despite showing them miracles and proofs, refusing to use their mind and hearts to meditate on this miracles and to meditate on life and death senses, the creation of universe, the big questions and issues of life. In fact, these people wanted to consider sacred their spiritual ancestor with Statue, Totem, Pictures and so on : the living out of fantasy between sacral and idolatry concept is very narrow, especially with Satan assistance. This Totems concept suits their fallacious souls because some of malicious and influent peoples want to have and keep a special, and privileged positions, usually for power, notoriety and wealth (as you said). The examples are many : Noah's people who worshipped ancient wisdom's ancestors, Abraham and the King Nemrod, Moses and the Pharaon, Jesus and influent Jews (who wanted strong prophet like David and Salomon in order to retrieve their powerful kingdom, but it was so heavy for them to begun firstly with a pure heart and just mind), Mohamed and rich Mecca idolaters people, etc.

Even the Jews and Christians which were monotheistic believers at the beginning were wandered by their rabbis, priests and scribes. Those falsifiers people wrote additional and false faith and prescriptions to their original holly book Bible and torah (we don't know where are the original torah and bible) especially the apparition of Trinity concept and other bad prescriptions (for example, the Alcohol and pig were forbidden at the beginning). They do this falsifications just for lucrative and mercantile usually for political reasons and hegemony over their followers using corruption to the political or military leaders. When Allah sent his last prophet Mohamed with signs and proofs which are well known by Jews and Christians (the prophecy signs of Mohamed were written in the original Torah and Bible and were deliberately deleted by Jews rabbis), the majority of them denied him excepted a few of their rabbies and priests who believed on Coran and him. In fact, inside their soul, they well know that Mohamed is the last prophet and that Coran is revealed by Allah but they denied him because he was Arab and not Jew, they were afraid for their prestigious material positions, just Jealousy "And when there came to them an apostle from Allah, confirming what was with them, a party of the people of the Book threw away the Book of Allah behind their backs, as if (it had been something) they did not know! "(Coran 2, 101)".(you can see my last discussions in these subject)

Another important thing is that this idolaters or prophet's disbeliveers are not linked with any strong pacts with their idols. Their malicious and satanic leaders usually mix prescriptions that keep their followers within mysticism acts (magic, man-offertory, reincarnation ideology, etc) and in the same time to allow a free way to their souls deviations without restrictions (Atheism, adulterous, nudism, porno, lies, crimes, drugs, etc). Some of them use bad and wrong political ideology as communism where Lenine or Staline are Gods, race racism or nazism where Hitler is God, savage liberalism where Dollar and World Bank are Gods, military dictatorship and arrogant men where Bush and Sharon and their assistants are God's, and other types of political or social dictatorships where right religion, justice and equity are absent or nearly. These methods are always in the advantage of these few satanic leaders and their assistants because they are often hidden behind their fabricated political laws or military power rejoicing their full privileges (Bush family and oil, Dick Cheney and Weapons industry, ….). They are and want to remain untouchable.

But God or Allah prescriptions, even if they are some time heavy for souls (for example, in Islam : 5 prayers/day with ablutions, one month of fast each year, Zakat, equity, Jihad, etc). When you think about these prescriptions, you will find that they are in your advantage, in order to keep peace in your own soul, your small family, your society, and peace or good relationships between all human civilisations (socially, educationally, economically, ) here in this life, and, more important, your salvation in the eternal life. In a sense, it represent the "tax" that you have to pay if you want your salvation: the right way of Allah without idolatry, hypocrisy, unfairness, arrogance, racism, soul and satanic deviations and other human diseases, but with obedience to Allah and his prophet, patience, perseverance, repent directly to Allah (and not by the intermediate of pope or some mercantile priests or rabbis) , social equity, and other good things (which exist also in Christianity and Judaism).

[vela]

fassi said:

part 1


Myth and legend represent false religions but don't construct or create true religions. Myth and legend have noting to do in the case of monotheistic religions Judaism, Christianity (the original and not the falsified one's as I usually repeat) and Islam. These religions were revealed by God or Allah by the intermediate of messengers or prophets supported with proofs and miracles, to their local people and, for the last prophet Mohamed (PBUH), to all the humanity "We sent thee not save as a mercy for the peoples ".(coran 21, 107). It does not mean that prophets has not been send to Indian or Chinese peoples before Bouddisme, Confucius, …. but what happens for these people for example ?

In fact, all prophets from Adam to Mohamed, without exception, have been sent to all earth peoples in regular periods of time with the principal following message : to worship Allah or God and only him : the uniqueness of God. "Not an apostle did We send before thee without this inspiration sent by Us to him: that there is no god but I; therefore worship and serve Me" (Coran 21, 25) . Of course, behind this principle, you believe that God is the creator of everything, you believe on invisible creatures like angels, on the existence of Satan as our perpetual enemy, on the judgement day after death, on paradise and hell, on the creation of Adam, on all prophets, on holly books, and so on. Some of prophets and their believers have followed the prescriptions of precedent prophets, some were sent to renew the principle of God uniqueness and correct deviations that were happened before. In fact, between two prophets, people could usually forget or progressively forsake their faith and religious prescriptions to the benefit of Satan way or soul desires (look, for example, to the history of Prophet Josef and his brothers who were believers and their descendants, the 12 tribes of Israel who became wandered, and Allah sent his prophet Moses to guide them).

Most of people haven't believe on their prophets. Usually, their argument was : Why should we change our ancestors ideology or worshipping way. Allah answered them : "And when it is said unto them : Follow that which Allah hath revealed , they say : We follow that wherein we found our fathers . What! Even though their fathers were wholly unintelligent and had no guidance (coran 2, 170)

) ? They disbelieved their prophets despite showing them miracles and proofs, refusing to use their mind and hearts to meditate on this miracles and to meditate on life and death senses, the creation of universe, the big questions and issues of life. In fact, these people wanted to consider sacred their spiritual ancestor with Statue, Totem, Pictures and so on : the living out of fantasy between sacral and idolatry concept is very narrow, especially with Satan assistance. This Totems concept suits their fallacious souls because some of malicious and influent peoples want to have and keep a special, and privileged positions, usually for power, notoriety and wealth (as you said). The examples are many : Noah's people who worshipped ancient wisdom's ancestors, Abraham and the King Nemrod, Moses and the Pharaon, Jesus and influent Jews (who wanted strong prophet like David and Salomon in order to retrieve their powerful kingdom, but it was so heavy for them to begun firstly with a pure heart and just mind), Mohamed and rich Mecca idolaters people, etc.

Even the Jews and Christians which were monotheistic believers at the beginning were wandered by their rabbis, priests and scribes. Those falsifiers people wrote additional and false faith and prescriptions to their original holly book Bible and torah (we don't know where are the original torah and bible) especially the apparition of Trinity concept and other bad prescriptions (for example, the Alcohol and pig were forbidden at the beginning). They do this falsifications just for lucrative and mercantile usually for political reasons and hegemony over their followers using corruption to the political or military leaders. When Allah sent his last prophet Mohamed with signs and proofs which are well known by Jews and Christians (the prophecy signs of Mohamed were written in the original Torah and Bible and were deliberately deleted by Jews rabbis), the majority of them denied him excepted a few of their rabbies and priests who believed on Coran and him. In fact, inside their soul, they well know that Mohamed is the last prophet and that Coran is revealed by Allah but they denied him because he was Arab and not Jew, they were afraid for their prestigious material positions, just Jealousy "And when there came to them an apostle from Allah, confirming what was with them, a party of the people of the Book threw away the Book of Allah behind their backs, as if (it had been something) they did not know! "(Coran 2, 101)".(you can see my last discussions in these subject)

Another important thing is that this idolaters or prophet's disbeliveers are not linked with any strong pacts with their idols. Their malicious and satanic leaders usually mix prescriptions that keep their followers within mysticism acts (magic, man-offertory, reincarnation ideology, etc) and in the same time to allow a free way to their souls deviations without restrictions (Atheism, adulterous, nudism, porno, lies, crimes, drugs, etc). Some of them use bad and wrong political ideology as communism where Lenine or Staline are Gods, race racism or nazism where Hitler is God, savage liberalism where Dollar and World Bank are Gods, military dictatorship and arrogant men where Bush and Sharon and their assistants are God's, and other types of political or social dictatorships where right religion, justice and equity are absent or nearly. These methods are always in the advantage of these few satanic leaders and their assistants because they are often hidden behind their fabricated political laws or military power rejoicing their full privileges (Bush family and oil, Dick Cheney and Weapons industry, ….). They are and want to remain untouchable.

But God or Allah prescriptions, even if they are some time heavy for souls (for example, in Islam : 5 prayers/day with ablutions, one month of fast each year, Zakat, equity, Jihad, etc). When you think about these prescriptions, you will find that they are in your advantage, in order to keep peace in your own soul, your small family, your society, and peace or good relationships between all human civilisations (socially, educationally, economically, ) here in this life, and, more important, your salvation in the eternal life. In a sense, it represent the "tax" that you have to pay if you want your salvation: the right way of Allah without idolatry, hypocrisy, unfairness, arrogance, racism, soul and satanic deviations and other human diseases, but with obedience to Allah and his prophet, patience, perseverance, repent directly to Allah (and not by the intermediate of pope or some mercantile priests or rabbis) , social equity, and other good things (which exist also in Christianity and Judaism).

Fassi, a shorter discourse would have sufficed to express your disagreement with my post.

But let me see if I understand. Do you believe that God's last word has already been said?

[captainusa1]

Fassi, what are the fake Christian religions and the real Christian religions? It would be fascinating to read a Muslim's opinion about this. I personally don't believe that there are any fake mainstream churches, only fake people who attend those mainstream churches. I realize that they have different beliefs about certain subjects, though.

[Igu]

-Even though I hold none, I believe Humans need religions to live socially. It doesn't have to be a psychopatic religion like Islam, or too feminized religion like christianism, the main thing is that it has to be in accordance with the culture of the those who believe in it.

-Areligious people tend to be too universalist and liberalist, that's the bad side of being cartesian and realist.

-I don't really feel the need to believe but I do feel the need to practice my costums, even superstitions.

[captainusa1]

Captain said:

Fassi, what are the fake Christian religions and the real Christian religions? It would be fascinating to read a Muslim's opinion about this. I personally don't believe that there are any fake mainstream churches, only fake people who attend those mainstream churches. I realize that they have different beliefs about certain subjects, though.

On second thought, fuggidaboudit. I just had the displeasure of reading your original post. ;D

[NuSapiens]

Vela said:

I think myth and legend precedes religion. Myths and legends were born within clans and families out of the need of new generations to learn the exploits and deeds of their ancestors.

With time (many generations) these oral traditions were gradually embellished to the point were supernatural attributes were bestowed on their ancestral central figures or main characters. Then, and only then, came the cunning and astute guys who decided to “organize” these beliefs into religions and create a hierarchical system were, obviously, they had a special, privileged position.

Very true. And to organize a pantheon might have been a political move to reflect the relationships of various clan dynasties. So "Zeus gives birth to Athena" or "Hephaestus marries Aphrodite" might be about tribal alliances, at least partly.

Of course, this also got mixed up with simple storytelling about human archetypes, and so on.

[geo]

to organize a pantheon might have been a political move to reflect the relationships of various clan dynasties. So "Zeus gives birth to Athena" or "Hephaestus marries Aphrodite" might be about tribal alliances, at least partly.

Not likely.

The structure of a Mythology (any Mythology) is a complex and interweaving process that requires millenia to develop. In most cases, its meanings and intepretations are symbolic and include knowledge and experience of all kinds: scientific, artistic, religious, political, linguistic, all in an amagalm that exactly suits the peoples' distinct ethos.

Tribal alliances or quarrels were common and I believe it was not an unusual phenomenon globally, for a people to wage war on their not long ago ally. Theres no reason for such things to constitute the basis of a Mythology.

Views of that kind were firstly expressed in later antiquity by Euimeros and are ruminated in modern age by historical materialism.

[vela]

Vela said:

I think myth and legend precedes religion. Myths and legends were born within clans and families out of the need of new generations to learn the exploits and deeds of their ancestors.

With time (many generations) these oral traditions were gradually embellished to the point were supernatural attributes were bestowed on their ancestral central figures or main characters. Then, and only then, came the cunning and astute guys who decided to “organize” these beliefs into religions and create a hierarchical system were, obviously, they had a special, privileged position.

Of course this is an oversimplification of a complex phenomenon and I wasn't implying that somebody planned everything right from the start or that this idea could explain all religions.

Like other world institutions, as religions grow in numbers they also evolve and transform, not infrequently as a result of inner power struggles by opposing or conflicting doctrines, influencing and being influenced by the societal groups where they exist.

And I'm not saying either that religions are intrinsically evil. What I would like to add is that we humans have a natural tendency to believe in something and therefore have a need for religion, at least during some stage of our normal development. I would say also that most people with a religion are sincere and content, even complacent, with their faith, which is good as long as that faith doesn't advocate the destruction of others.

Herein lies the danger of religions, when you totally surrender you will to unscrupulous leaders who, in the name of your God, put your faith to the test by commanding you to do things that otherwise you would not do and to believe things that you would normally not believe.

[fassi]

Vela said:

Fassi, a shorter discourse would have sufficed to express your disagreement with my post.

But let me see if I understand. Do you believe that God's last word has already been said?

Beyond my disagreement with you, the question of religion is of extreme importance both for individuals and for nations. That's why when I write my posts, depending on the importance of the subject, I try to communicate the message some times in detail supporting my opinions with bibliographic references and realistic proofs (it's my natural style as I'm scientific researcher and engineer). I dislike a random manner or race or tribes chauvinism in discussions. Showing the truth of Islam is my first aim to participate in this forum. Learning good information from intellect participants (not fanatic or chauvinist) and their cultures and way of thinking is a add value.

So, I apology for you Vela (and for other impatient readers) because the second part of my post will be little long…<br>
For you and me, we have to know why we exist and what will be our sort after death. Every body have to know that he will be judged according to his acts and speaks, his work and his faith.

On the other hand, A lot of wars between civilisations take its origin from religions discordances or bad interpretations of texts and prescriptions, or simply inspired and executed by the hegemony of political and military leaders. For example, look at wars against Muslims in Chechnya (and not Bellarusia or Georgia whose people are majority Christians), war in Palestine , war in Iraq, war in Afghanistan, war in Albania and Kosovo, etc. The hundred thousands or millions peoples who died were Muslims and not Christians or Jews. They died because they defended their faith and their dignity or wanted their freedom to set up a free Muslim country where they could establish real Islamic faith and law. But western countries, especially USA (unfortunatlly wandered and lead by Zionist lobbies ) are continuing their crusade wars even if they avoided to declare it publicly (President Bush said in 2002 that war against Iraq and Afghanistan will be a crusade war and made up his gaffe soon after claiming that these war are against terrorism). Mr Bush feigned to forget the crimes and massacres perpetrated by Israel, USA, Serbia, Russia, Phillipines againt millions of civilians Muslim includding Iraqi and palestinian childrens. For him it's a war for liberty and democraty....and not terrorism !!

Yes I believe that Quran is the last holly book and the prophet Muhammad is the last prophet : "Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things" Coran 33:40 .

Islam is the last and complete true divin message for humanity : "This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion" (Coran 5, 3)

That's why it is so vital to know it.


With respect to your second opinion, if you look at the prophet's life, it wasn't easy life as you think.

If this prophet's were a falsified one's, or wanted to "organise" the believes of their ancestors for their own privileges, how their doctrines would continue till now (untruthful or lying people never succeed for long time !) ? How their proofs and miracles would have been realised (look at the miracle of CORAN , Moses and Jesus miracles, Abraham, Noeh, Josef, miracles) ? Why God has literally destructed the prophet's disbeliveers and their cities like Noah's people, loath people (sodom & Gomorrah), pharaon and his soldiers, Bombay city, and many other ethnicity and disbeliveers peoples (These total destruction's were before Moses prophecy).

On the other hand, a lot of prophets were born in poor or average social and financial conditions (Moses, Jesus, Mohamed, etc). They died in the same situations and had never claim material gains, greatness, glory, or power. This is not the case of satanic leaders who wandered their peoples from the straight way in order to remain within their own privileges. Moreover, Many of prophet's were killed by their people notably by Jews.

For example, as Muslim, I know more about the last Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) history to give you some of his miracles (you can read about the prophet miracles in many sources).

When the idolaters of Mecca noticed that more and more people (poor and riche) are following the prophet Mohamed, and after having tried many torture and other persecutions methods (like do Israel with Palestinians now), they filled that the situation could become out of their control, they proposed to him to be their King and to give him what he wanted (money, wife's, etc) but he refused categorically and said : "even if they give me the Sun in my right and the moon in my left, I will not stop the message of Allah, till I died.". The idolaters tried to kill him many times : one time in Mecca the day before Hegire when he was alone in his house. At the night, more 10 or 12 strong idolater soldiers, coming from the different tribes of Mecca, surrounded the prophet's house and wanted to kill him during his slipping. But Allah saved his prophet and ordered him to go out without afraid. When he go out, he found all the soldiers slipping. "And We have set a bar before them and a bar behind them , and ( thus have covered them so that they see not" (Coran 36, 9)

The day after, a body of troops go to the pursuit of Mohamed and his companion Abou Bakr (the first Khalif After the prophet ). The 2 men were hidden in natural cave called (Hiraa cave) not a deep cave and very easy to locate. The troops were front of the cave but they never thought that this cave could be the refuge of the 2 fugitive men and for very good reason: the unique cave entry was simply recovered by spider's web! Look carefully to these Coran Verse " If ye help him not , still Allah helped him when those who disbelieve drove him forth , the second of two ; when they two were in the cave , when he said unto his comrade : Grieve not . Lo! Allah is with us . Then Allah caused His peace of reassurance to descend upon him and supported him with hosts ye cannot see , and made the word of those who disbelieved the nethermost , while Allah ' s word it was that became the uppermost . Allah is Mighty , Wise" (Coran 9,40).

Another time, few years after hegire, when more than 10.000 soldiers, a coalition forces regrouping Mecca idolaters, other Arabic tribes and Jews of Medine city, attacked the Muslims in Medine city. the Muslim military and assailant forces (in number and weapons) were unequal, but Allah protected his prophet and believers and send to the coalition forces a strong and glacial wind which dispersed them and forced them to return back with ignominy, without Muslims intervention "And Allah turned back the Unbelievers for (all) their fury: no advantage did they gain; and enough is Allah for the believers in their fight. And Allah is full of Strength, able to enforce His Will" Coran 33:25

.

All the time, the prophet asked his followers to be patient despite these very worse circumstances because he was convinced that Allah will support him and Islam will very soon reign on the earth (these promise were realised in less than 50 years later when Muslims have spread the message all over the world despite their few numbers and mediocre arms and weapons).

When the Prophet Mohamed died, he hasn't let money, but he let the light and right guidance for humanity : the Coran and Sunna (Prophet hadith’s and acts). So, we have to hold on this last message if you really want your salvation.

An untruthful person, a false prophet or satanic leader always depend on his potential of money, power, arms and weapons, pried, and other false or wrong ideology. He is always hidden behind these material appearances. His ideology will sooner or later disappear as disappears communism, nazism, apartheid and in the next future the savage liberalism, Zionism and so on.

This is a very few aspects of Mohamed life, acts, situations and miracles. If you want to know more , look www.islam-guide.com.

Finally, don’t judge Islam as the religion by Muslims practices or Arabic corrupted and hypocrite leaders regimes. A big gap exist because many Muslims don’t follow the right prescriptions of Coran and Sunna and, instead, they follow their bad souls and satanic way.

One of the miracles of this religion is that, despite the worse Muslims circumstances, it represent the fastest religion in the World in term of new adherents (for example, the official number of new French converted to Islam is estimated at 50.000,00 in 2004, may be the unofficial number is more). In addition, and it is more important, these worse circumstances stimulate the renewing of Islamic mind and thinking and the right and truth Islam faith !

I think that I give some ideas. But, you have to read carefully and deeply about Islam and other religions (common and discordance points) and make your own opinion. Then, you are a free to judge yourself with solid arguments.

[vela]

fassi said:

Beyond my disagreement with you, the question of religion is of extreme importance both for individuals and for nations. ...

Fassi, your zeal kind of reminds me of myself when I was much younger.

I can see that you are a man of faith and that you are dedicated to those thing that you believe.

Thanks for explaining your point of view!