What do Islam and apartheid have in common?

[alex221166]

WHOOOPS!

[Thanks to Deuce for the pics]

[zain]

Makkah is a scared place for Moslems ,you can think of it as a club for certain ideology only ,though i think it is time to allow non-Moslems to get in ,there is nothing wrong with that .in fact it is good for their economic (tourism ) ,millions of Moslems visit makkah every year ,if they allow non-Moslems ,the number will be doubles .
A lot of Saudi laws need to be reform and modernism ,Saudi society is gradually getting a mature, and accepting modernization (remember they just switch from bedouins to urban few decades ago )
most of makkah population are “pilgrimage remnants” this is what they call them in Saudi, they are black ,Asian, Indian, arab ,very divers place

[alex221166]

Saudi society is gradually getting a mature, and accepting modernization

Sure it is.

'The Jews and Christians are Allah's Enemies'
Al-Qarni: "The uproar and the chaos that we see today in the human race – the killing, the acts of aggression, the rape, the robbery, and the disgrace of honor – what causes this is that the banners which are hoisted high are those of the Jews, the Christians, and other religions and faiths, and not the banner of 'There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is Allah's Messenger.'

"Let's have a look at what is written in the Koran. What position must we adopt towards Allah's enemies? Is it the position we have adopted? First of all, we must be aware of the fact that at present we see that [the West] doesn't want us even to say the words 'Allah's enemies.' They don't want us to say that the Jews and the Christians are Allah's enemies. They don't want us to say that the Jews and the Christians are the enemies of the Muslims and the enemies of Islam.

"This is fixed and established in the Koran and in the tradition…<br>
[...]

Interviewer: "You shouldn't blame them for this. We are the ones to blame if we agree to change the Koran and the tradition to suit them."

Al-Qarni: "The terrorists are these Jews and Christians who implement these policies through the use of force, repression, and tyranny, and to this end make use of planes, tanks, and all manner of deadly weapons."

Interviewer: "Aisha's second question [is about whether] Islam spread by the sword. They always say that Islam spread by the sword. How should we respond to them?"
Al-Qarni: "First of all, we ask by what means is the freedom that the U.S. wants spread? The freedom that it wants now to market?"

Interviewer: "Through missiles and bombs…"

Al-Qarni: "Through B-50s, bombs that the international community has forbidden, hundred of thousands of armed soldiers – this is how freedom has spread."

Interviewer: "And we don't see any freedom. All we see afterwards is subjugation…"

Al-Qarni: "At any rate, if we return to our discussion of the heart of the matter… First of all, we must realize that Allah obligated us to disseminate this religion all over the globe. And first, it should be spread through outreach and calling people to Allah's word, through pleasing words, gently, and through good deeds. Through letting people hear Allah's words and showing them Islam. However, if we run up against someone who opposes this path and attempts to obstruct the spread of the upright religion and the light, and to obstruct their reaching others – in this case it is a duty to fight such a person. And Allah said: 'Fight them until there is no more strife and Allah's religion reigns supreme.'
"We don't agree with those who disavow this completely and say that the religion [of Islam] doesn't use the sword. No. Islam uses the sword when there is no other alternative. Therefore wisdom, as the religious authorities say, consists in utilizing each thing in its proper place. If there is need for the sword, then it is wise to use the sword, and if the occasion requires kind words and outreach, then it is wise to utilize them."

It took me 5 seconds to find this. I didn't even bother to check MEMRI for some of the most outrageous stuff.

[alex221166]

By the way

If there is need for the sword, then it is wise to use the sword, and if the occasion requires kind words and outreach, then it is wise to utilize them

^^^^ The later is called taqiya.

[zain]

Saying Christians are anti-Allah ,is just like saying Moslems are the anti-Christ (many Christians believe and declare that) .not only Moslems ,most religious fundamentalist divide the world to black and white, good and evil , heaven and hell .
i don’t see any thing odd with Al-Qarni (in the article above) except his double sander i.e Islam has the freedom to preach all over the world ,and have the right to use the sword for that if obstructed from doing so, but Christian shouldn’t have the same right of preach in Moslems land!!! (though he did not say it there but most likely that is what he believe) I have read for a Christian fundamentalist ,saying war of freedom to Iraq will give us a chance of converting them to Christianly!!!!. so basically they don’t believe in enforcing their religion upon other ,but in enforcing freedom of preaching so they can save the world from hell.
Moslems fundamentalists need to learn from their Christian brothers how to adopt to modernization . even though the world is only black and white ,still we should consider ,or at least tolerate the possible of existence for other Colors .
Saudi is one of the few middeleastren country that have a hope of modernization in the near future ,the rest are living in a lake of poverty until now there is no clear way of how they will get out of it .

[Berter]

alex said:

WHOOOPS!

[Thanks to Deuce for the pics]

Alex, Would westerners allow a bunch of moslems visit a nuclear unit (nuclear power plant, ...etc) !?...

[Italian Stallion]

Muslims in Europe already demand separate swimming hours between Men and Women to swim in public pools. Is it long before they ask for separate hours between "believers" and Infidels?

[eufrenio]

Berter said:

Alex, Would westerners allow a bunch of moslems visit a nuclear unit (nuclear power plant, ...etc) !?...

Berter,here´s a better analogy:
a Muslim can visit the Vatican or indeed any christian church, while Christians are not even allowed in Meccah..
I remember when I visited your country, people nearly jumped me whenever I got too close to a mosque.

[alex221166]

Berter said:

Alex, Would westerners allow a bunch of moslems visit a nuclear unit (nuclear power plant, ...etc) !?...

I apologise, Berter. I wasn't aware that there were any nuclear power plants in Mecca.

By the way, as far as I know there is no religious discrimination in any western country, not even in nuclear power plants.


By the way Zain, while I enjoyed reading your post, I think that you are completely wrong about Saudi Arabia. It would be the last country to expect any reforms from. It is the greatest sponsor of terrorism in the world, even worse than Iran. To be honest I expect a lot more from Iran than from the Saudis. After 26 years of fundamentalism, the Iranians are going to overthrow the mullahocracy sooner or later.

[zain]

Saudi will follow the Kuwait ,and Bahrain example ,( gradual progress to a liberal and democratic kingdom) ,as long as they have good economic ,and their king is pro-American non- religious, they will be able to reform themself ,it is a must (especially after 9/11) and it is only a matter of time .

[alex221166]

zain said:

Saudi will follow the Kuwait ,and Bahrain example ,( gradual progress to a liberal and democratic kingdom) ,as long as they have good economic ,and their king is pro-American non- religious, they will be able to reform themself ,it is a must (especially after 9/11) and it is only a matter of time .

The Saudi royal family is not pro-American. In fact, it is hostage of the fundamentalist clerics. Bahrain is on a good track but they are still far from a democratic regime. And as far as I know, Kuwait is even further away.

I do think, however, that you are right about economic prosperity being important, as long as the religious fundamentalism is squashed and secular law reigns supreme and unchalenged. Considering what is presently happening in Iraq (with several elected politicians already asking for Islamic law to supercede secular law), I have my doubts that such reforms might succeed.

In my honest opinion I don't believe in the "instant democracy" powder working in countries that never had a democratic government in their whole history.

[Springa]

I don't agree with the context this was written in, but I can't really say I disagree with it per se...
If there is need for whatever, use whatever. Pure common sense. And sometimes one needs the sword... It's just the reason why this guy wants to use it that is wrong.

alex said:

By the way



^^^^ The later is called taqiya.

[alex221166]

Springa said:

I don't agree with the context this was written in, but I can't really say I disagree with it per se...
If there is need for whatever, use whatever. Pure common sense. And sometimes one needs the sword... It's just the reason why this guy wants to use it that is wrong.

Violence is only justifiable in self-defense, to prevent aggression.

To be honest I have less problems with a violent enemy who shows his face than with one on stealth mode.

[Berter]

alex said:

I apologise, Berter. I wasn't aware that there were any nuclear power plants in Mecca.

By the way, as far as I know there is no religious discrimination in any western country, not even in nuclear power plants.

Try to understand the analogy I gave. . Eufrenio understood it.

[Igu]

-War or not war the people of that area will never change, better accept them as they are and exploit their unused resources untill they are finished. the Arab question is just a little brackets that will soon be closed. no more than 100 years and we will forget the existence of those primitives.

-a little attention of 2 centuries dedicated to arabs because of oil won't change the world. the danger will come from the clones (Pakistan, Indonesia).