Socialist labor tax:The solution to our econ woes

[Minstrel]

Reading up on on some world history, cause that's the type of dude I am, I came across an interesting society called the Incas. The Incas, a pre-columbian amerindian civilization in south america had a most fascinating economic system that can only be described as a "labor tax". That is, working itself is your tax, and in return you recieve clothing, food, housing other neccessites etc. They flourished, and created a huge, effecient empire with good roads, a simplified (if you could call it that) criminal code, and a loyal ,comfortable, egalitarian society. It was probably the worlds first example of state socialism (ancient sparta it could be argued too I suppose), and by all accounts it was extremely successful. Unfortunately since it does'nt exist anymore (destroyed by conquistadors) we can't see it in practice or how it might have ended up left to its own devices. Also, the common socialist "incentive to work" problem is solved because your incentive is goods produced by other producers and a comfortable lifestyle.

Whats interesting about its economic system its there is no medium, (money) just simply work and you have all you need.Now this system can be described rather scathingly as an "100% tax", but tt bypasses all of the problems that plague market driven economies, a more flexible workforce, increased effieciency,full integration of producers (no nasty competetion), no homelessness, virtually no poverty, no unemployment, no tax burden (ironically a %100 tax is not a burden at all, but exactly the opposite, you are freed up because capitalist producers dont want to extract surplus value from your labor-hours to turn a better profit) and society can more rapidly integrate environmentally friendly technologies without harming their economy.

I think socialism in some form is pretty much inevitable. I have quite possibly revived an idea for a perfectly harmonious economic system with all interests intact (no counter-productive antogonistic class warfare). What do you think of my "labor tax" and how could it be implemented in our modern world if at all?

[eufrenio]

The Incas, a pre-columbian amerindian civilization in south america had a most fascinating economic system that can only be described as a "labor tax". That is, working itself is your tax, and in return you recieve clothing, food, housing other neccessites etc.

That´s a pretty good definition of slavery to me!
Work for food and shelter.

[Minstrel]

That´s a pretty good definition of slavery to me!
Work for food and shelter.

You sort of got me there, but you have to think of it from another angle. Our alternative ofcourse is wage labour (roughly equivalent to slavery), constant unemployment, a permanent underclass, outsourcing etc.

Its not slavery because you are exchanging your product (work) for the goods and services society produces , your work is "money". In our world, that would mean free utilities, healthcare (really free), transportation, food, clothing, housing, childcare etc. There might even be a small role for the market in the sercvices sector, so that people can earn money to pay for services from others (i.e. restaurants) since services are hard to automate and would provide people an incentive to provide quality services, but manufactered and basic goods, utilities, transport etc are free.

Basically when it comes down to it, my system is 90% "labor" socialist, 10% market (accounted for services) by doing so, I just eliminated about 90% of crime because most of it is for purposes of obtaining wealth (robbing, laundering, stealing, fraud,counterfeit etc) even some domestic violence because its mostly started over financial issues.

[alexandrian]

Sounds ideal. But you'd have to say goodbye to multinational corporations, ingenuity, creativity, ambition, and quality. If people will get paid to work per hour, they'd just do the crappiest and easiest job possible. There's no assurance of quality. No upward mobility. No progress. No technological advancement. There needs to be some kind of layered system of worth. That's why communism is unworkable and absolutely retarded.

[Minstrel]

alexandrian said:

Sounds ideal. But you'd have to say goodbye to multinational corporations, ingenuity, creativity, ambition, and quality. If people will get paid to work per hour, they'd just do the crappiest and easiest job possible. There's no assurance of quality. No upward mobility. No progress. No technological advancement. There needs to be some kind of layered system of worth. That's why communism is unworkable and absolutely retarded.

LOL Alexandrian your not getting it. Its not communism in the classical (i.e. soviet style) sense or even the marxian ideal, it was actaully invented before marx in south america in its earliest form, in its purest form.

Alot of jobs would be automated (sewer cleaning, street sweeping etc) Careers would not be based upon money or gain but personal fulfillment. Working hours will be reduced as automation takes hold till eventually people work 2-4 hours a day and so on. People will have more free time, cities can be designed more effieciently and aesthetically without regard to business concerns, environmental technologies can be put to use immediately and to great effect because there are no whining business interests or lobbyists.


Gone are creativity, ingenuity and quality? Not so, all of those qualities have always been present in the human spirit, you dont need money to be a creative person, einstein did'nt die a rich man, (he might have lived comfortably) da vinci was'nt a rich man. These are people who LOVED what they did. That pure quality is what I want to capture again, the unspoiled, innoncence of curiosity and the need to do things better.

No doubt there will still be a need for the market, albeit in a small role such as limited to services. Atleast in the early stages. People can work in the services sector (while still receiving state benefits) and earn money to pay for other services (restarants etc) since they are hard to automate, and difficult to for free beucase of the abuse that could ensue (bad, slow or irresponsive irresponsible service).

My system would be about 90% socialist 10% market to make up the inadequacies.

[alexandrian]

Where will the money for state benefits and automated services come from? Shouldn't people who become doctors, lawyers, or CEOs get more products in turn? How will this be sorted out? How will people who invent new products or make breakthroughs in disease research get rewarded? Is there any incentive to learn? Any incentive to be ambitious?

[Minstrel]

alexandrian said:

Where will the money for state benefits and automated services come from? Shouldn't people who become doctors, lawyers, or CEOs get more products in turn? How will this be sorted out? How will people who invent new products or make breakthroughs in disease research get rewarded? Is there any incentive to learn? Any incentive to be ambitious?

Wells thats the thing, there will be no money, because work *is* money. You are taxed "work" in exchange you get all the benefits of the products of others, you put in and you get out, input and output. Very simple. Its a trade.

People will invent new products simply to make their lives better and more convenient. Science will continue for its own sake. That is the true nature of the pursuit of knowledge. We would invest heavily in physics, engineering, bio-technology etc. In fact we could bring back the "class" system, just without the hierarchy. A scientist class, soldier class, artist class etc.

But what I was thinking about was allowing certain perks to go for people with high-demand, high-stress jobs to make up for the lack of money. Things such as travel bonuses (money for other countries), restaurant vouchers, ultra-luxury apartments etc could provide an excellent incentive for high-performance careers.

[mmmkay]

minstrel said:

alexandrian said:

Where will the money for state benefits and automated services come from? Shouldn't people who become doctors, lawyers, or CEOs get more products in turn? How will this be sorted out? How will people who invent new products or make breakthroughs in disease research get rewarded? Is there any incentive to learn? Any incentive to be ambitious?

Wells thats the thing, there will be no money, because work *is* money. You are taxed "work" in exchange you get all the benefits of the products of others, you put in and you get out, input and output. Very simple. Its a trade.

People will invent new products simply to make their lives better and more convenient. Science will continue for its own sake. That is the true nature of the pursuit of knowledge. We would invest heavily in physics, engineering, bio-technology etc. In fact we could bring back the "class" system, just without the hierarchy. A scientist class, soldier class, artist class etc.

But what I was thinking about was allowing certain perks to go for people with high-demand, high-stress jobs to make up for the lack of money. Things such as travel bonuses (money for other countries), restaurant vouchers, ultra-luxury apartments etc could provide an excellent incentive for high-performance careers.

Interesting idea. i've heard of something like this before, I forgot what it was, though it was parecon or something.

I'll take anything than our current system right now. The uneven distribution of wealth in america, a bastion of the developed world is shameful.