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Post by 88mmFlaK on Sept 2, 2004 20:52:47 GMT -5
Ordering the attack upon the Kursk salient 1943 (Citadel) was indeed a grave error on Hitler's behalf- though, it must be noted, that Hitler's intuition had him going against the operation- it was OKH and Hitler's yes-men which continually pushed the idea. It was noted by Guderian, who also opposed Citadel.
While the Soviet losses were great, so was Germany's. The thing is, the USSR could afford these losses- Germany could not. Rather than hold onto the panzers and fight the Soviets when they were least effective, the order was given to attack the largest, deepest fortress in the world. The Russians are/were masters of battlefield engineering, and have had a historic strength being on the defence. The Germans gave up all advantages of mobile tactics, and met the USSR on a ground of the Soviet's choosing.
Citadel could not be characterised as anything other than a German defeat. The objective of encirclement of the Soviet forces within the salient were nowehere close to being achieved. The panzer losses were enormous, and the loss of many seasoned, battlehardened veterans attacking through the landmines and entrenched Soviets simply could not be replaced.
Make no mistake though, the Germans who attacked the Kursk salient July4 1943 fought with a ruthless determination for victory or death, with extreme valour. Had these forces been reserved and used for mobile attacks against the dogmatic and predictable Soviet thrusts which were to come later, the Soviet losses would have been manifold what they were in Citadel. Instead they were ground to a bloody stump in the deep Russian fortress.
It is an inaccurate statement to claim that the 'best and brightest' fought on the allied side. Indeed the category 1 German units far outclassed anything fielded by the Allies, until late 1944. Take the breakout from the Normandy beachhead for example; the best that the Allies could muster were making mistakes that the Germans had learnt long ago in France and N. Africa. Consistently showing poor co-ordination and timing, and all this despite air supremacy, good equipment and naval support. The allied heroes don't even approach German heroes like Wittmann and Rudel, in sheer number of kills;it doesn't even come close; often cat1 German troops went on fighting despite wounds which would have sent an allied soldier to the rear.
The real problem with the German high command lay in Hitler's micromanaging of the war, and his yes-men. The allies had no real equals to Manstein, Guderian, Balck, except for Patton, of course- and it showed.
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Post by Crimson Guard on Sept 5, 2004 14:20:30 GMT -5
Geir! <<The Germans were attempting to bomb the British into submission but it only had the effect of pissing them off, their losses were high but not as high as the Germans. The British were initially attacking industrial sites and it was only later in the war after thousands of British civilian casualities that they decided to target German civilians. Whether you think it's right or wrong, by this point, the allies were quite keen to wrap things up as quickly as possible.>> Its fact that Churchill ordered the Civilian bombings on Germany.I dont know what history your reading or watching(History Channel?).Churchill even initially wanted to use Poisen Gas. <<You clearly have a romantic view of Nazi Germany. You can describe as many hypotheticals as you like>> No its not how I like it to show it,its how it happened plain and simple. I'am realist..besides I dont see Nazi Germany any Different than the Roman Empire or Alexander's Empire.. <<Its been 60 years since the Nazis lost, Europe is free and Germany has moved on and is a better place today, which is what millions fought, died and were ultimately victorious for. >> Thats your opinion nothing more,which your intitled to and i apreaciate! But i dont how better off modern Germany is or the this world is after WW2 ..their has and still are wars being fought,fear of Nulear/Bio-chemical Destruction,Deaths,Drugs ,terrorism,Corrupt Governments,Commusism/socialism/ect ect..So much for your better World...its actaully been all down hill after WW2,not up! Maybe what the World needs in an true powerful Empire to bring a New Order,like Rome did,with all of it Strenghts and none of its weakness's!  |
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Post by Melnorme on Sept 5, 2004 14:34:12 GMT -5
Crimsonguard might have a point if he was speaking about the WW1 Germans rather than the WW2 Germans.
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Post by SwordandCompass on Sept 5, 2004 19:33:22 GMT -5
Hitler striked first.CrimsonGuard,since you seem to know WWII facts,Please Post the treaties Hitler broke.Also please list how long after he sign these treadies did he show his intentions.Churchill unlike france poland and russia knew hitlers intentions.While you clearly make some points you forget who you are talking about.Churchills decisions are DEFENSIVE Hitlers was OFFENSIVE.What would you have Churchill do? sign some peice of paper with a man who clearly intention was to break them? CrimsonGuard,you asked Geir about where he gets his informantion,i like to ask you where you get yours?besides of course 'David Irving' |
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Post by SwordandCompass on Sept 5, 2004 20:15:08 GMT -5
The no spin zone starts here: CrimsonGuard: "A big important fact is that America was breaking its own law at the time,and sending weapons and aid to Britain." -Lend-Lease plan November 1940 Washington D.C. U.S. would "lend" military equipment to cash-strapped Britain.- home.earthlink.net/~gfeldmeth/chart.ww2.htmlCrimsonGaurd: "Hitler had no choice in the end,America under Roosevelt was pushing him to war" -Germany invades Poland September 1, 1939 Polish-German border Following non-aggression treaty with Soviet Union, German troops invade Poland. England and France declare war on Germany. Soviets invade Poland from East.- -Germany's blitzkrieg takes western Europe March-June 1940 Western Europe Denmark, Norway, Nethlerlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, and France crushed by German offensive - -Battle of Britain Fall 1940 Great Britain German bombers ruin British cities in attempt to obtain British surrender before U.S. entry. Britain's breaking of German code ("Ultra") helps overcome air attacks.- -U.S. enacts draft bill September 1940 Washington D.C. Registration of all men between 21 and 35. Limit of 900,000 men in time of peace.- -Destroyer for Bases deal September 1940 Washington D.C. and London U.S. transfers 50 old destroyers to Britain in exchange for use of eight British Atlantic bases.- Hitler made the first move,America was not pushing for war in Europe. -April 14, 1939 President Roosevelt appeals for peace in Europe.- -November 4, 1939 United States passes Neutrality Act of 1939.- -June 10, 1940 Italy enters war on the side of Germany, declares war on UK and France. Italy invades France.- -September 27, 1940 Germany, Italy and Japan sign the Tripartite Pact in Berlin.- -October 31, 1941 German submarine sinks the American destroyer Reuben James, killing seventy-six.- - December 7, 1941 Japan attacks Pearl Harbor, Philippines, and Guam; U.S. Pacific fleet crippled.- -December 8, 1941 President Roosevelt addresses the Congress, asking for a declaration of war against Japan.- -December 8, 1941 U.S. Congress declares war on Japan.- -December 11, 1941 Germany and Italy declare war on U.S.- -December 11, 1941 United States declares war on Germany.- www.worldhistory.com/wwii.htmWhile the world is on the Defensive,Hitler is on the Offensive.Point is Churchill and Roosevelt had no other choice.Either let Germany walk through or "Blood, Toil, Tears and Sweat"-May 13, 1940 British Prime Minister Winston Churchill delivers the "Blood, Toil, Tears and Sweat" speech before the House of Commons.- www.worldhistory.com/wwii.htmMy point is not to debate who was better soldier or what not.The point is to post events which led to the war. |
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Post by SwordandCompass on Sept 5, 2004 21:05:35 GMT -5
CrimsonGuard: "Its fact that Churchill ordered the Civilian bombings on Germany.I dont know what history your reading or watching(History Channel?).Churchill even initially wanted to use Poisen Gas." -Beginning from 10 July, the 'Battle of Britain' rages in the skies as the RAF desperately combats wave after wave of aerial attacks and bombing raids by the Luftwaffe while launching counteroffensive bombing missions into Germany. - War is hell.Churchill ordered bombing is retaliation.Despite the fact CrimsonGuards misleading intention of judging Churchill's decision he forgets who made the first move .Hitlers bombing strategy is to slow production of arsenal.To stop the source of armament.Churchill's strategy is demoralization.Back to war strategies class 101. CrimsonGuard: "The Air battle of britain really ended in stalemate.The germans where never able to secure airsuperiority .But the British werent able to counter the Night Raids either.So the invasion fo britain never happend,in 41,it was put off,and Hitler invaded Russia instead." -Though outnumbered by four to one the RAF is able to inflict enough damage to the German forces to cause Hitler to suspend 'Operation Sealion', the proposed invasion of Britain by sea. By the end of September, the 'Battle of Britain' is effectively over. Germany has suffered its first major defeat of the war. About 14,000 British civilians have died in the German raids.- www.moreorless.au.com/heroes/churchill.htm"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few.” |
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Post by Crimson Guard on Sept 6, 2004 7:40:19 GMT -5
Sword&compass <<CrimsonGuard,you asked Geir about where he gets his informantion,i like to ask you where you get yours?besides of course 'David Irving'>> Dont be a dork!  For person that once PM me about not wanting to fight,you sure do like starting one yet again.. "In fact if you keep implying I'am nazi-revisionist,hmm maybe i will be implying that your a "Revsionist Communist scum".  But I'am not like that. i read History books ,not pulling stuff from other white washed web-sites like you,with this cut and pasted crap above you showed me! America was shipping weapons and volunteers to Europe first in the Spanish Civil War and again for france and of course for Britain 1940/41. American law prohibated involvement with forign affairs,it was called "Neutrality Acts" .Do you know what that means? Roosevelt went around/above the law and Congress a few times..OK Its fact! The Lend lease Act is a sign of War....it was the broadest grant of power given to a US President up to this time, the act brought American isolationism to an end. it opened the door for War.. A radio address on Dec 29,1940, Roosevelt told the nation, "We must become the arsenal of democracy." Nine days later, on January 6, 1941, he went before Congress asking that democracies around the world be loaned war materials for which "we shall be repaid within a reasonable time following the close of hostilities, or, at our option, in other goods of many kinds, which they can produce and which we need." He added, "If the United States extended these material loans, the democracies would win." (And the USA is still waiting for its Money back!) He's a goodguy,LOL! Pearl Harbor in case you havent noticed either,hadnt occured yet! That my friend is an unofficial declaration of war,and i'am sure the small fact that Churchill was Roosevelts cousin didnt have any influence either??  Hitler never declared War on Britain and France,they did declare War on Germany,theirs a difference.The reason why they did that not for freedom,no its because Germany was a rival power becoming to powerful..The allies After WW1 made sure Germany would suffer,it was stripped of its colonies,forced to pay inflated ridiculous amounts of money to the allies,its military was downsized to basically nothing more than a police force ect ect..Nazi Germany was threat to their European position and colonies. Churchill ordered that German Cities where to be bombed,its fact.Churchill by the way was Warmonger himself and imperialist.He was a shady hyprocite bastard which i do not care for. All he really cared about was his high rank and political position,and Britain's position as a Supreme World power,which of course after WW2 it wasnt anyway.He later wanted war with his former butt buddy Stalin,and calling on Europe to fight the "Iron Curtain" and Communism.And he called them an evern Greater threat than Germany,lol..Please hes joke. Hitler never ordered British Cities to be attacted until after The british bombed German cities.The allies went all out for German Civilians from 1942 on ward(they lost millions)thinking it would end the faster.It did not,it never does. The Germans only bombed Stratigic targets up until German cities where bombed. Points i will stretch out for you and others: 1)Iam not a nazi-in fact i dont belong to any political party,if i had to decribe myself,it would probably be a Zen-Anarchist or something like that. 2) I never said the Nazi where saints(but neither where the allies) 3) i never said the nazi's should of won the war 4) I never said the nazi's didnt make blunders 5) I'am subjective and openminded..I dont blend Opinion and History as one ,as some do.  6) i do have soft spot for Empires,which i never made a secret.But it doesnt impair my judgment. 7) i dislike lies! The exact things America did in WW1 they where again doing before WW2.Any history book worth its paper will tell you that. Here's a good web-site! history.acusd.edu/gen/WW2Timeline/neutralityacts.htmlLots of Underhanded activaty going by America. They where indeed Provoking war.I really couldnt care if you believe me or not cause its History, its fact ,it happened. |
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Post by Crimson Guard on Sept 6, 2004 13:33:33 GMT -5
I view war as war.
I look on WW2 like WW1 or Ancient Wars,as it was a war between sovereign states over territory nothing else.
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Post by SwordandCompass on Sept 6, 2004 21:26:14 GMT -5
CrimsonGuard: "i read History books ,not pulling stuff from other white washed web-sites like you,with this cut and pasted crap above you showed me!" Crap? Whitewashed? The links i posted are timelines of world war2.I cut and pasted dates which show hitlers aggression. CrimsonGuard: "America was shipping weapons and volunteers to Europe first in the Spanish Civil War and again for france and of course for Britain 1940/41. American law prohibated involvement with forign affairs,it was called "Neutrality Acts" .Do you know what that means? Roosevelt went around/above the law and Congress a few times..OK Its fact! The Lend lease Act is a sign of War....it was the broadest grant of power given to a US President up to this time, the act brought American isolationism to an end. it opened the door for War.. A radio address on Dec 29,1940, Roosevelt told the nation, "We must become the arsenal of democracy." Nine days later, on January 6, 1941, he went before Congress asking that democracies around the world be loaned war materials for which "we shall be repaid within a reasonable time following the close of hostilities, or, at our option, in other goods of many kinds, which they can produce and which we need." He added, "If the United States extended these material loans, the democracies would win." (And the USA is still waiting for its Money back!) He's a goodguy,LOL!" Lol all you want.Point is Hitler was emanate danger.Germany was the aggressor.In both wars.Every decision of America and England was on the defensive.Points which you skip over.Roosevelts judgement was based on America's ally respect for England.America is not waiting for its money back. CrimsonGuard: "Roosevelt went around/above the law and Congress a few times..OK Its fact!" No one said it wasnt.You are stating the obvious.No point in your part is made. CrimsonGuard: "Pearl Harbor in case you havent noticed either,hadnt occured yet! That my friend is an unofficial declaration of war,and i'am sure the small fact that Churchill was Roosevelts cousin didnt have any influence either?? " Thats what makes leaders, leaders, to for the see the future.Again,America was acting out defensibly.All decisions based on what was happening. CrimsonGuard: "Hitler never declared War on Britain and France,they did declare War on Germany,theirs a difference.The reason why they did that not for freedom,no its because Germany was a rival power becoming to powerful..The allies After WW1 made sure Germany would suffer,it was stripped of its colonies,forced to pay inflated ridiculous amounts of money to the allies,its military was downsized to basically nothing more than a police force ect ect..Nazi Germany was threat to their European position and colonies." The rub,Germany was belligerent.It made the first moves.I made this point clear by posting the dates.Which you call "white washing". CrimsonGuard: "Churchill ordered that German Cities where to be bombed,its fact." No on refutes that.You keep pressing this point as to justify Hitler and Germany? Read the dates i posted above.Which you call "crap".If they are crap refute the dates. -Germany entered into a treaty (Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact) with the Soviet Union, and in 1939 laid claim to parts of Poland. Poland refused the claim, and Britain and France declared support for Poland. Germany then invaded Poland, and on 3rd September 1939 Britain and France declared war on Germany.- CrimsonGuard: "Churchill by the way was Warmonger himself and imperialist." You can thank Germany.His "warmongering" as you call it was a reaction to peaceful Germany actions of "uniting" europe:-X.All conservatives are "imperialist" to some degree.Welcome to the real world. CrimsonGuard: "He later wanted war with his former butt buddy Stalin,and calling on Europe to fight the "Iron Curtain" and Communism.And he called them an evern Greater threat than Germany,lol..Please hes joke." Welcome to the real world.Its called war strategies.You can thank peaceful misunderstood Hitler for the strange alliance. Churchill's Flaws and Mistakes www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=46Q. Did Churchill misunderstand Hitler? www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=436CrimsonGuard: "Hitler never ordered British Cities to be attacted until after The british bombed German cities.The allies went all out for German Civilians from 1942 on ward(they lost millions)thinking it would end the faster.It did not,it never does." Look,fact is germany bombed england first.Gremany was the aggressor.Like i said before, you make good points but you condemn something that which doesnt make any sense and also is hypocritical.What sparked the bombing of german cities was the mistake of the bombing of london.What did you expect would happen? CrimsonGuard: "The Germans only bombed Stratigic targets up until German cities where bombed." Stating the obvious again.Germany, like it or not sealed its fate.You cant rrefute the fact that Germany was aggressor.While England was on the defensive. |
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Post by SwordandCompass on Sept 6, 2004 21:49:25 GMT -5
CrimsonGuard:
"For person that once PM me about not wanting to fight,you sure do like starting one yet again..
SwordandCompass
« message sent on: 08/17/2004 at 02:01:05 »<br>------------------------------------------------------------------------
i dont want you to think im fighting with you! ok.. i dont care wether someone is nazi or not. cool?
CrimsonGuard
« message sent on: 08/20/2004 at 22:58:54 »<br>------------------------------------------------------------------------
yea man its cool,but you have to stop assuming or thinking people are Nazi's,because they harbor a different view and wish to take a subjective outlook then you when on the subject.
I am not fighting with you.But you are hypocritial.
CrimsonGuard:
"In fact if you keep implying I'am nazi-revisionist,hmm maybe i will be implying that your a "Revsionist Communist scum". But I'am not like that.
If i have used "revsionist commnist" websites then you COULD imply that im a "revsionist-communist".But i havent.But you have used "nazi revisionist" websites and also have made some very ambiguous statements.Also i know a little about 'David Irving' and much of what you have said is identical to his view.
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