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Post by Trog on Jun 10, 2005 18:35:31 GMT -5
In my opinion, God isn't a religion or a superstition. He's a reality. I would rather die right now in my own fluids than live in a world without a god, without any real purpose. It's not so much the promise of heaven that keeps me going; it's the simple fact of knowing that I was created and loved by a divine being that fills me with joy. No superstition could do that. But let every man make up his own mind. I'm not going to force anyone into my belief system. All I ask is they not interfere with mine. I'm with you on this, Mike - and a fine speech too! Nothing in this life will ever be too much for you, that much I can say!
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Post by humantag on Jun 10, 2005 18:41:39 GMT -5
What is the value of a belief held for emotional reasons? we can't embrace theism on th ebasis that a world with a God is perhaps more pleasant than a world without a God. There is a saying that for those who believe no evidence is necessary, and for those who do not, no proof is ever enough. Hey, if Faith gets us through this life and we die and it's all crap, so what? We won't know any better then anyway, but at least this way it makes letting go more easily and with hope that one day we will be reunited with loved ones who have gone before us. I pity anyone who does not have this hope. Ah yes, sort of like Pascal's Wager. Interesting. I really appreciate and respect you for your honesty here (you acknowledge this is a 'hope' of yours, not an article of certain knowledge, as other theists insist), though I still respectfully disagree.
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Post by humantag on Jun 10, 2005 18:43:50 GMT -5
With all due respect, all your question does is furter vindicate my argument that relgious beliefs are predicated not on reason, but on fear of death and an inability to accept the horror of mortality and the surreal spectacle it makes of our lives. Well, I've presented myself countless times with your thesis and I find myself consumed with total and utter despair. As much as I think I have Faith, I also have human reasoning and the cynic in me is always pondering the concept that there is nothing after we die. So yes, it is far too painful for me to think that this life is just all there is and that's it - that my deceased loved ones I will never see again. I'll take my chances in believing - if only to get me through this life. Hey - I have no problem with a person of faith who expresses it in the terms that you do (though I obviously don't share this faith). You are unusually honest about the nature of your faith and I can't help but respect the maturity with which you defend your view.
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Post by Trog on Jun 10, 2005 19:00:03 GMT -5
Well, I've presented myself countless times with your thesis and I find myself consumed with total and utter despair. As much as I think I have Faith, I also have human reasoning and the cynic in me is always pondering the concept that there is nothing after we die. So yes, it is far too painful for me to think that this life is just all there is and that's it - that my deceased loved ones I will never see again. I'll take my chances in believing - if only to get me through this life. Hey - I have no problem with a person of faith who expresses it in the terms that you do (though I obviously don't share this faith). You are unusually honest about the nature of your faith and I can't help but respect the maturity with which you defend your view. Well, thank you for your appreciation. However, I do want you to know that I am not a passive believer, that I do not just believe in it for the sake of it (though this is part of it, I admit). I do seek out evidence to nourish my belief and take full responsibility for my choices in life. I do not consult spiritualists, seances and stuff like that, I just try and find healthy sources to keep my Faith alive and to keep despair at bay. I am not ashamed to say that I need my Faith to get me through life- I appreciate the immense relief it gives in times of grief.
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Post by mike2 on Jun 10, 2005 23:13:39 GMT -5
You need to feel loved and protected, right!?. Might be the explanation lies in the fact you have been left by your father who returned Greece!?. Nope, it has nothing to do with my biological father because I never knew him to begin with. As soon as he ran away, my mother met a wonderful man who would become my real father. We may not be biologically connected, but indeed, he is my real father and I love him very much. He also encourages me to celebrate my half-Greek heritage because I do genetically come from a fantastic people, even if my biological father was an ass. Now you know. I've always had a father figure, so you can't say that's the basis for my belief in God. No, my relationship with God comes from universal human weaknesses, not personal circumstantial ones. Nice try to get me riled up there, though, Doc.
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Post by Soomaal on Jun 11, 2005 0:44:31 GMT -5
You need to feel loved and protected, right!?. Might be the explanation lies in the fact you have been left by your father who returned Greece!?. Nope, it has nothing to do with my biological father because I never knew him to begin with. As soon as he ran away, my mother met a wonderful man who would become my real father. We may not be biologically connected, but indeed, he is my real father and I love him very much. He also encourages me to celebrate my half-Greek heritage because I do genetically come from a fantastic people, even if my biological father was an ass. Now you know. I've always had a father figure, so you can't say that's the basis for my belief in God. No, my relationship with God comes from universal human weaknesses, not personal circumstantial ones. Nice try to get me riled up there, though, Doc. Mike The cool thing to do now a days is become an athiest, don't worry this fad will die out soon
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Post by Educate Me on Jun 11, 2005 15:16:23 GMT -5
Thinking that religious people are silly people who fear death and just want afterlife safety is stupid to say the least.
VERY Often, instead of feeling relieved by the idea of heaven/paradise, they have a strong fear of hell, and their salvation , or the salvation of their loved ones makes them feel extremely uneasy, to the point of wishing that everything ends with death and that God didnt exist.
It is in fact a christian doctrine, jesus said that of those who go to hell, that it would have been better for them never having been born.
I think the christian hell is more scary that just no longer being.
Being a guilt ridden catholic is far more difficult than being an atheist with generic personal morals.
Religious people just cant avoid having faith, if they had irrefutable proofs of the non existance of God, they would happily abandon their religion, there are many things Id like to do that Ive never done because of my religion.
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geo
Full Member
hellene
Posts: 135
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Post by geo on Jun 13, 2005 13:14:49 GMT -5
I think the christian hell is more scary that just no longer being. I think the human perception of 'when you die you don't exactly rid the world of your ass but come to bother another world' is scary, be the other world heaven or hell. I also find the trade happening so your ass finally gets to bother heaven instead of hell even scarier... to say the least...
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Post by humantag on Jun 17, 2005 19:07:57 GMT -5
Thinking that religious people are silly people who fear death and just want afterlife safety is stupid to say the least. I never characterized religious people as 'silly'. I empathise with the religious - I feel we are both traumatized by death and simply (well, perhaps not so simply) respond to it in different ways. I have a great deal of respect and admiration for some religious people, contempt for others. I have no problem with religion as an expression of awe - awe at the magesty, mystery, and tragedy of existence. In short, I have no problem with religion as a way of experiencing reality - I have HUGE problems with religion as a means of explaining reality. This is doubtless the sense of religion Einstein had in mind when he said "Religion without Science is blind, Science without Religion is lame". To the extent that 'religion' or a 'religious experience of reality' may be construed as a sense of 'awe' at how wild and surreal and inexpressibly wonderfully, horribly weird it all it is - I am myself religious. To the extent that religion involves accepting as true dogmas that do violence to reason and cannot withstand intellectual scrutiny - to the extent that religion involves accepting as a 'matter of faith' things for which there is no compelling evidence (eg. Gods and afterlives), I am most certainly NOT religious. VERY Often, instead of feeling relieved by the idea of heaven/paradise, they have a strong fear of hell, and their salvation , or the salvation of their loved ones makes them feel extremely uneasy, to the point of wishing that everything ends with death and that God didnt exist. It has long been observed (and in more recent years corroborated by sound research) that the essence of human stress lies in an inability to control or influence what happens to us. This is one reason why superstitions abound in areas where human ability to influence events is limited and there is a high degree of uncertainty and randmoness (sports, gambling, fishing, -let's not forget the most famous - FOXHOLES ). Only a fool would see an avoidable hell as worse than certain, unavoidable nothingness. It is in fact a christian doctrine, jesus said that of those who go to hell, that it would have been better for them never having been born. I think the christian hell is more scary that just no longer being. Being a guilt ridden catholic is far more difficult than being an atheist with generic personal morals. Religious people just cant avoid having faith, if they had irrefutable proofs of the non existance of God, they would happily abandon their religion, there are many things Id like to do that Ive never done because of my religion. I'd bet both my legs that if you could be guaranteed eternal life by natural means you'd find you had little need for religion.
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Post by jay (mulatto) on Jun 17, 2005 20:20:29 GMT -5
i'm atheist. technically i think i'd be agnostic. but my attitude is that god has no effect on my existance, just like santa claus, so i act accordingly to the way someone who doesn't believe in god or santa claus would act. i also act like i am god, which is useful for my own personal self-belief and confidence. i don't think i'd be able to accomplish half the things i do if it was for me believing that i am some how special, and different to all the others around me, i.e. a god.
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Post by buddyrydell on Jun 18, 2005 21:55:19 GMT -5
I'm a Roman Catholic but I would hardly call myself religious. In other words I believe in God and all, but on a more modified scale if you will. What I mean by this is I believe that God created the first cell that sparked the evolution of life on Earth as we know it now. Also, I don't regularly attend Mass on Sundays. Though I will say that much of why I quit going to church as often is because a few years back, we discovered that our priest was embezzling thousands of dollars and gambling it away in Atlantic City heh, so uh yeah lol.
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Post by amksa on Jun 26, 2005 7:29:25 GMT -5
i once stopped believing in God, and the Zidane Man appears, the one after whom we invented the zidanid type of human berberity ! in france, people think that Zidane can walk on water, and makes many other miracles : this is the first berber viewed in high regard by the ungrateful French, but times change and zidane proved that a Berber can be bigger than god in France.
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Post by Wotanimus on Jun 26, 2005 7:46:31 GMT -5
The point is not what do you believe, but WHY do you believe in that and not in an other faith.
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Post by amksa on Jun 26, 2005 7:54:32 GMT -5
the real faith don't need explanation : you just have to watch a football/soccer match in which Zidane played, or just watch Zidane talking and walking, and you will understand what i meant. and i explain why i believe in him : Zidane is thought amoung French to have the ability to produce miracles. there are tons of people who called their kid "Zidane." And i'm not delirious because of the canicule we have here those days : i can even bet that zidane could bang (as annunaki would say) and spread his berber gene in the most racist village of France, in the most racist family ! french are strange people... and now they have their own human God.
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Post by amksa on Jun 26, 2005 7:56:52 GMT -5
so i would like to vote :
adept of the Zidanism.
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