European Cavemen in America?

[lakah]

Is it possible that European cavemen during the last ice age, made their way to America?

[Hairless]

Yes, and they were promptly eaten by the cave bear

[asdf]

It happened. Haplogroup X proves it as far as I'm concerned. Basically they were Northern Iberians/(Basques). Now going by first come first serve PC logic, these Anglos better get off the Spanish man's lands.

[Hairless]

seizure said:

It happened. Haplogroup X proves it as far as I'm concerned. Basically they were Northern Iberians/(Basques). Now going by first come first serve PC logic, these Anglos better get off the Spanish man's lands.

Good point (as far as X). I hope we'll be able to undertand the migrations more in the future.

[Drooperdoo]

Lakah,
The so-called Solutrean culture from Spain and Southern France may have may their way to the east coast of America before Mongols crossed the landbridge from Siberia into Alaska. These Solutreans are basically who we would today call Basques. They were (and are) known for their great skill as fishermen and their long history sailing around the Atlantic. (It's thought that they're responsible for the extinction of many species of whales.) So they sailed WAY out into the Atlantic and up and down the coast.
Tools and architectural structures discovered in Virginia and South Carolina (in the United States) are unmistakably Basque in design, and have little or no connection to later Amerindian designs.
The most intriguing thing left behind by these Solutrean people was their genes. Amerindian peoples have a Haplogroup called Haplogroup X, which their Asian progenitors don't have. So how could these Amerindians have a non-Asian haplogroup? Because they have it in small numbers it looks like later Asiatics discovered and absorbed non-Asiatic settlers.
By the way . . . if Asians didn't have Haplogroup X, then who did? --Significantly, Basque skeletons dug up from the time-period in question indeed do have Haplogroup X.
So the genetics actually link up with the archaeology.

P.S.--Here's a link: www.wfu.edu/~cyclone/THE%20SOLUTREAN%20CONNECTION%20QUESTION.htm

[Mike the Jedi]

Haplogroup X is no longer thought to have come to America from Europe. It has been found in Siberia.

[Drooperdoo]

Mike,
Look at this Dienekes link on the subject of Haplogroup X: dienekes.ifreepages.com/blog/archives/000402.html

There are actually two subgroupings under the heading of Haplogroup X. X1 and X2.

According to Dienekes, "The few Altaian and Siberian haplogroup X lineages are not related to the Native American cluster, and they are more likely explained by recent gene flow from Europe or from West Asia."

So, yes, X has been found in Siberia, but not the form that exists in Native American populations, and it's not ancient. It's new.

Do you have a link to contradict this?

[Toasty]

oh yeah the Salutreans, i saw a special on this on PBS a year ago. Fascinating stuff indeed.

The showed two clovis spearpoints used by both groups across the Atlantic and they were practically identical.

Someone get me a sandwich.

[asdf]

The Discovery channel pretty much on the day this thread was posted had a one hour deal on Basques colonizers.

[Crimson Guard]

Yes Southern Europe and the Paleolithic Age are of greater importance,though they have been overlooked for many years.

Even in Italy and Sicily you will find a continuous human presence going back to 800,000 years. The Paleolithic to be is of much greater significance than the more studied Neolithic. I think Science will start changing this stance very soon,as more and more information comes forward & is released.


Ex.

Europe has a long history of cultural and economic achievement, starting as far back as the Palaeolithic. The recent discovery at Monte Poggiolo, Italy, of thousands of hand-shaped stones, tentatively carbon-dated to 800,000 years ago, may prove to be of particular importance.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe

[Test Tube Babies Unite]

www.tracegenetics.com/Malhi%20and%20Smith%202002.pdf

www.genetree.com/product/native-american-data.asp

Haplogroup X is highest in Algonquian speaking populations of the Great Lakes Region.



FIGURE 1: This DNA migration pattern map, created from compiled research on DNA populations around the world, demonstrates that the first Humans originated in Africa about 130-180 thousand years ago. Notes: a) mtDNA macro-lineage L is predominant in Africa, b) mt-DNA macro-lineages M and N are found throughout Eurasia and Australia, c) mtDNA lineages H, I , J, K, T, N, U, V, W and X are predominant in West Eurasia, d) mtDNA lineages A, B, C, D, E, F, G, M, P, Q and Z are predominant in Asia and Oceania, and e) mtDNA lineages A, B, C, D, and X are found in the Americas.

Haplogroup X represents a minor founding lineage in Native Americans

Approximately 97% of Native American mtDNAs belong to one of four major founding mtDNA lineages, designated A to D (Haplogroup A, Haplogroup B, Haplogroup C, Haplogroup D).

Unlike haplogroups A-D (Haplogroup A, Haplogroup B, Haplogroup C, Haplogroup D), Haplogroup X is also found at low frequencies in modern European populations.

There is a consensus haplogroup X motif that characterizes our European and Native American samples.

Among Native Americans, haplogroup X appears to be essentially restricted to northern Amerindian groups, including the Ojibwa, the Nuu-Chah-Nulth, the Sioux, and the Yakima, although we also observed this haplogroup in the Na-Dene- speaking Navajo. (#9837837#)

European and Native American haplogroup X mtDNAs, although distinct, nevertheless are distantly related to each other. (#9837837#)

Time estimates for the arrival of X in North America are 12,000-36,000 years ago, depending on the number of assumed founders, thus supporting the conclusion that the peoples harboring haplogroup X were among the original founders of Native American populations. (#9837837#)

To date, haplogroup X has not been unambiguously identified in Asia, raising the possibility that some Native American founders were of Caucasian ancestry. (#9837837#)





Here is the Caucasian linage: (haplogroup x)

Caucasia. A large region between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea on the border between Eastern Europe and Asia. It is traversed by the Caucasus Mountains, from which it derives its name. In the north, Caucasia extends to the Kuma-Manych Depression and, in the south, to the northwestern border of Turkey and northern border of Iran. The region covers an area of over 440,000 sq km and in 1959 had a population of 27 million. Its northwestern part is settled by Ukrainians.

Caucasia consists of three geographical zones: (1) the steep Caucasus Mountains, known also as the Great Caucasus Range; (2) the steppe lowlands of Subcaucasia, which lies north of the mountains and is divided by the Stavropol Upland into the Kuban Lowland and the Terek-Kuma Lowland (see Terek region); and (3) the mountains of Transcaucasia (the Little Caucasus and the Southern Caucasian or Armenian Highland), which are south of the lowlands and are separated from them by the Rion Depression and the Kura Valley. The Caucasus mountain watershed divides Caucasia into two historical-political regions: (1) Transcaucasia, with an area of 190,000 sq km (encompassing Georgia, Azerbaijan, and Armenia) and a population of 14 million; and (2) Subcaucasia or northern Caucasia, with an area of 250,000 sq km belonging to the Russian Federation (encompassing Krasnodar krai, Stavropol krai, and the republics of Kabardino- Balkaria, North Ossetia, Chechnya, Ingushetia, and Dagestan) and a population of 13 million.

The area was generally protected from even extreme glaciation for the last 50+ thousand years, and shows at least some evidence of habitation as far back as 80,000 years


Mitochondrial DNA Studies of Native Americans: Conceptions and Misconceptions of the Population Prehistory of the Americas

www.tracegenetics.com/Eshlemanetal2003.pdf



Haplogroup A was found to have the highest frequency in the eastern United States, central Mexico and Canada. Haplogroup B was highest in the west and Midwest. Haplogroup C was found to be overall much less frequent but did show a slightly decreased frequency in Alaska. Haplogroup D followed the opposite pattern as C: frequencies were slightly higher in Alaska and lower in the remainder of Canada and the United States. Haplogroup X shows a higher frequency around the Great Lakes and Greenland than the remainder of North America."www.cstars.ucdavis.edu/ papers/ppt/greenbergetal2001d.ppt