Post by MC anunnaki on Nov 8, 2005 13:22:36 GMT -5
syriano said:
abuse of women by M.E. men is exaterated I think. The west has it's high share of violence against women too (from their statstics).
violence against women is wrong of course.
Of course, I'm not saying that it doesn't happen in the west, but the thing is, Westerners do not accept this violence, whereas in the Middle East, in Muslim countries, it is accepted to bitchslap your wife if she's not "obedient". If it's not accepted by Islam really doesn't matter - if the majority of Muslims accept this, it becomes a Muslim thing.
syriano said:
I am sure if they are asked, they'd condemn it. do you want them to hold a rally for it?
in Islamic law, rape is punished by death sentence.
In Islamic law, it's very hard to prove rape at all. Besides, even if the rapist is punished, so is the victim. I'm not asking for rallies, I'm asking for condemnation when survey after survey shows us that 85% of all rapes in Sweden are mainly committed by Muslim Middle Eastern men. Virtually 100% of all gangrapes are by black Africans or Middle Eastern men. What do we get instead for condemnation? This:
* Muslims accusing the victim of whorish behaviour, thus making the crime her fault.
* During trials, we've had severe problems with the victim and (if there are any) witnesses being harrassed, threatened and spit at by the relatives of the criminal. I can assure, this is NOT something ethnic Swedes will do.
* No Muslim leader is willing to admit that the view on women in Islam is partly responsible for this vile behaviour. I mean, there HAS to be a reason that Middle Easterners are so over-represented in rape crimes.
syriano said:
btw, rape incidents are wayyy higher in the west than in the M.E.The ME has lousy, biased reports of crime statistics. I don't trust them.
syriano said:
again, if they are asked, they'd condemn it. This matter especially is very exaterated. this practice is carried by some crazy tribal traditions in some remote areas only
They have been asked, and they do not condemn it. Instead we hear excuses for the brother/father/uncle who committed the crime. I agree that it is not allowed in Islam, but it's is mainly common in Muslim countries which partly makes it a Muslim thing. In Sweden, it's mostly non-religious Kurds who have committed this kind of crime, but it's not like they consider themselves non-Muslims. And you'll be surprised at the number of Muslims who think the girls get what they deserve...
syriano said:
I believe after each terrorist attack, the religous leaders in the affected country issue a fatwa condemning the attacks
Which doesn't say much when the average Muslims think the victims get what they deserve. Normally, I dislike generalizations, but seriously, when it comes to Muslims, it's more accurate than wrong.
syriano said:
this indicates to a civilized and humanitarian society. if the laws don't harm anyone, then what's the problem?
of course the muslims should appreciate what's given to them and act it...
No it does not. Sweden is a civilized country without silly demands from Muslims. They also ask to be freed from activities that are suppose to be mandatory, like swimming lessons for children. These demands harm young Muslim girls a lot because they cut them off from the rest of society, denies them the right to live life the way they want to live it and effectly suffocates any attempt at integration. We have young Muslim women who've lived all their lives in Sweden who barely speak Swedish because they're kept like animals locked up in their homes. This is not civilized.
Furthermore, in Sweden, Swedish culture must reign. If Muslims don't accept parts of Swedish culture, they don't have to follow it as long as they don't break any laws, but what they do have to follow is this:
* Individual freedom - If Muslim girls above 18 want to live a non-Muslim life they are entitled to do so. Parents or other relatives have no right forcing them to live by "the old ways".
* Freedom of speech - If I want to say that the Koran is only good for toilet paper, that's my right and no crazy Muslim has any right demanding I should take it back or be murdered because of my opinions.
syriano said:
ok this is bullshit I agree, but how common is this?
You're right, it is bullshit, but it does happen a lot and it makes Swedes unwilling to hire Muslim men. Eventually, this way of looking down on women as somehow less worthy will only backfire on the Muslim society.
syriano said:
finally, I admit that the face of Islam has changed recently (in the last 5 years). I noticed many muslims feel they are targeted by the west, which has given them a bad idea of westerners (not saying they are gonna bombard them ). alot more radical showed up..
at the same time, the actions of some Muslims has turned the westerners against muslims also.
actually, even muslims against muslims (as in Iraq).
Islam is in a very bad period now I think
I feel old writing all of this. I am actually a very secular 21 yr old Syrian Musilm
Of course, harsh reactions from both sides don't benefit anyone, but in my opinion, the Euros have a right to their harsh reactions and opinions of Muslims. After all, the Muslims aren't in their native lands and shouldn't make demands here. I think the secular Muslims or those who wish to reform Islam (which is in dire need of heavy reformation) need to make stronger efforts of distancing themselves from their devout counterparts. We don't need them to put the blame on "socio-economics" or "racism" or whatnot. Admit there is a problem and do something about it. Reformation needs to come from the inside, by the Muslims themselves. Europe has no need for Islam, nor should she bend to a religion that doesn't belong here.
Europeans have every right to demand the Muslims change their ways if they want to live here - the Muslims have no right demanding the Europeans change their ways to adapt more to Islam.
Edit: Typos. And syriano, don't see this as an attack against yourself.