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Post by asdf on Oct 23, 2005 5:53:27 GMT -5
Your blog is pretty erroneous. "Irano-Afghan" is a bloody phenotype. It doesn't mean any country with an Irano-Afghan element is homogenous and the same as every other country with that element. The term "mediterranid" for example does even apply to most of the people living in the Mediterranean region. It's simply named after where it was selected for--the Med. Just like the Iranid type was selected for in the Middle East, not Europe, not the Nordic countries, not magical white land. - Shermine is only half Iranian.
- Almost all Iranians have dark hair and dark eyes. You, however, decided to portray them as being majority light-eyed and brown-haired.
- You also black wash Arabians.
Here you claim Persians are majority-Nordic? Are you blind? Yes, when they say "vastly different", they mean Persians are quite different from Nords. These are the first nine pictures I could find. None of them look central European, northern European, or southern European. They look like what they are--caucasoid middle-easterners. You're as guilty of misrepresentation as those you accuse. The girl is not nordic. It does not matter that she has similar metric porportions as some Skandinavian: she's still a middle-eastern girl adapted to her environment. (Do you honestly believe Arabs just sprouted from the ground and have no relation to Persians?) If you actually believe Swedes and Persians are more related than Swedes and Brits, you're nuts. Yeah, it couldn't possibly have to do with millenia of adaptation to the middle-east, including pigementation, and plain genetic distance.
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Post by oslonor on Oct 24, 2005 4:09:14 GMT -5
According to research by Jews, they have concluded that Ashkenazi jews are not related to Turks or Europeans and they are related to other Jews from Israel. No Ashkenazi Jews are not nordic or nordish and they are not even considered white in racial terms. I also refer you to "Irano-Afghan race" fraud here: originofazeris.blogspot.com/2005/10/irano-afghan-fraud.html
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Post by asdf on Oct 24, 2005 7:18:37 GMT -5
No one fits into a single group. Coon, who you simultaneously use to corrobarate your claim that because they're metrically similar, nordics and persians must be the same, does not even claim that most Persians fit into his Irano-Afghan group. He calls it the principal element in all of Iran, which means it's first but still a minority. Other than that, I've no idea where you're getting that Persians are all Irano-Afghans.
Regardless, some Persians are Iranids. None are Nordids. Deal with it.
Nope.
You're being pendantic. It doesn't matter if there's an Iranian race. Half of her ancestry comes from Iran.
Rudia Bakhtiar is looks like what she is. A middle-easterner. I have no agenda to "claim" supposedly european looking Persians. Speaking of biographies, go take a look at Shermine's. She's half German. No two ways about it. My point? Just try not to use non-pure examples. For example, Catherine Zeta Jones is constantly used on this forum as an example of a dark Welshie. She's half Irish, half Welsh, though, and it's her Irish father who's darker than her Welsh mother. Maybe most of her appearance is due to him. For all you know Shermine's the spitting image of her German mother.
They usually have dark-brown and black hair. You show on your blog almost only the lightest Persians as if this is typical, meanwhile you make a big deal of Hollywood not showing Persians as white enough. Roxanne was played by a heavily
I'm mixing no one up.
They're not related at all? Your blog makes erroneous statements about Arabians, claiming they're mulato.
Stop putting words in my mouth. I said those people look like they belong in the Middle East. It's true. Europe has certain phenotypes; the Middle East has its. There are of course huge overlaps, but these people do not represent such.
Not according to the same Cavalli-Sforza map you started this with. Genetics, metrical dimensions, facial features--caucasoids are largely homogenous, Arab to Swede.
Just because you can't understand the similarities between different peoples with different pigmentation or have an agenda to prove Persians are "white" doesn't mean anything. If anything, "white" what is unscientific here.
You get on me for calling her Persian and yet you use "Afghans". Afghanistan is as ethnically plural as Iran. Why no objection there?
Blah, blah, blah. I didn't bloody mention Azeris. I'm not speaking of Azeris. How the crap is that girl nordic? Define nordic. Dolichochranic? What?
I think you should stop putting words in my mouth.
Yeah, and I talked to a guy who told me he found Jesus passing out fliers by the subway. Where's the part where you actually provide any evidence for what you're saying?
I was referring again just to Persians, who I repeat are not the same as nordics. "White" is a meaningless social construct not backed up by genetics.
WTF is that statement supposed to mean. First of all, for the last bloody time, Irano-Afghan does not mean Persian or Afghan. It means a phenotype in those countries, but that is also in others. This plate is not a example, or nor is it bloody supposed to be an example of Aghanis or Persians. No one bloody said most Persians have hooked noses. No one bloody said most Persians are Irano-Afghans. You came up with that all by yourself.
What are they pictures of? Monkeys? Pictures means graphical represention--drawings or otherwise.
Yes, and? Again, the only idiot who came up with the conclusion that this phenotype was exclusive to Persians and Afghanis. Don't blame your poor reasoning skills on Carlton Coon.
Coon isn't saying otherwise.
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Post by oslonor on Oct 24, 2005 12:56:10 GMT -5
It is very strange name. Irano-Afghan describe neither Persians or Afghans. It describes mostly Azeris and Turkomens. They are part of Nordic-Irano-Afghan group.According to her biography she came from Iran to Germany with her parents when she was 3 years old. I do not know what you mean by Middle Easterner. There is no Middle easterner category in anthropology. She does not look like Germans. And Germans do not need a half german girl to represent Nordic germans. Her case is not related to Catherine Zeta Jones. Also wonder how you know Shermines life so well. Is it not that you have an agenda and that is why you are saying she is half german. I do not associate Aryans with the color of the hair. I am not a nordcisit. What you are trying to say that Azeris have %100 black hair and I agree with you. You associate a typical Iranian image with an Azeri and you are correct because they are a majority. I do not think you have seen many Persians. But Azeris are different ethnic group. But I have noticed some people on these forums have seen Persians. They make comments such as "Yes. Iranians can look very different"
I am quoting Wikepedia. That is what wikepedia claims. Ordinary americans and Europeans do not agree with you. Those Persians could be very well from Europe.
That is correct. But the power of explanation of Caucasoid is very limited.
I do not have any agenda. Other people have an agenda to associate Persians with Arabs and Africans.
Both Persians and Afghans are the same people. I have same the objection there. I do not know what you are refering to.
Good question. Why you are not surprised about Azeris who have all the characteristics that you assign to Persians.
Swedes are one of those early nations that accepted the German version of history about Aryans and aryan migration. That is the proof.
That is what anthropologist believe. See the discussion on Nordish and Nordic here persianshollywood.blogspot.com/2005/10/what-is-difference-between-nordic-and_13.html
That is fine. You can use any theoretical model and any terminology that you like. But if you want to go from theory to reality, you need auxiliary theories and assumptions to be able to explain concrete examples e.g. point to somebody and say he is persian or afghan. The problem is that you do not have these additional theories and the implications from the general theory is not valid.
Those are good pictures if you want to prove that Irano-Afghan race is a hooked nose race. Otherwise they are not very good prototypes.
I wonder if Coon was trying to include too many ethnic groups in a very narrow or wide race category. He should have more categories.
Coon isn't saying otherwise. That is what Hollywood thinks.
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Post by Pepe friend of obelix on Oct 24, 2005 13:06:04 GMT -5
It is very strange name. Irano-Afghan describe neither Persians or Afghans. It describes mostly Azeris and Turkomens. They are part of Nordic-Irano-Afghan group. According to her biography she came from Iran with her parents when she was 3 years old. She does not look German. And Germans do not need a half german girl to represent Nordic germans. I do not associate Aryans with the color of the hair. What you are trying to say that Azeris have %100 black hair and I agree with you. But Azeris are different ethnic group. I am quoting Wikepedia. That is what wikepedia claims. Ordinary americans and Europeans do not agree with you. Those people could be very well from Europe. That is correct. But the power of explanation of Caucasoid is very limited. I do not have any agenda. Other people have an agenda to associate Persians with Arabs and Africans. Both Persians and Afghans are the same people. I have same the objection there. I do not know what you are refering to. Good question. Why you are not surprised about Azeris who have all the characteristics that you assign to Persians. Swedes are one of those early nations that accepted the German version of history about Aryans and aryan migration. That is the proof. That is what anthropologist believe. See the discussion on Nordish and Nordic here persianshollywood.blogspot.com/2005/10/what-is-difference-between-nordic-and_13.htmlThat is fine. You can use any theoretical mode and any terminology that you like. But if you want to go from theory to reality, you need auxiliary theories and assumptions to be able to explain concrete examples e.g. point to somebody and say he is persian or afghan. The problem is that you do not have these additional theories and the implications from the general theory is not valid. Those are good pictures if you want to prove that Irano-Afghan race is a hooked nose race. Otherwise they are not very good prototypes. I wonder if Coon was trying to include too many ethnic groups in a very small race category. He should have more categories. Coon isn't saying otherwise. That is what Hollywood thinks. you hate hollywood movies like this? www.imdb.com/title/tt0315983/
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Post by asdf on Oct 24, 2005 13:25:17 GMT -5
I cried when Esmail died, who was played by a swarthy Persian.
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Post by IranianLion on Oct 24, 2005 13:57:44 GMT -5
I cried when Esmail died, who was played by a swarthy Persian. No, I think you are wrong. Esmail was played by Jonathan Ahdout. Neither the first name or family name are Persian. Only the mother Nadi (played by Shohreh Aghdashloo) was authentically Iranian IMO. Edit: Having looked into Mr Ahdout, it would seem that he is Jewish Iranian.
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Post by IranianLion on Oct 24, 2005 14:20:54 GMT -5
Jesus Christ!
All I did was post a genetic map and all hell breaks loose. I was talking about genotype not phenotype. Any group in the top right quadrant is Caucasoid but there are clear differences between Caucasoid groups too. Iranians cluster with Europeans rather than Near Easterners. I wasn't saying that Iranians look European. I was talking about genetic distance.
So I really think you guys should stop talking about "how Iranians look" by posting several pictures off the internet and generalising from them.
With all due respect, I don't think Seizure, Olsonor or anybody on this forum can identify Iranians. This is partly due to self-appointed experts making up "facts". Personally, I have seen Turks tend to claim that any light Iranians must be Azari. Pakistanis tend to claim that Iranians look like them. Not all, but some do.
This became apparent when, as an experiment, I tried posting some pictures of Iranian generals. Nobody guessed they were Iranian. There were many guesses for eastern and southern European and Caucasian countries. But when I did finally reveal that they were Iranian one poster said he thought about saying that but the Pakistani posters had made him think Iranians must be darker.
Like you Seizure intimating that almost no Iranians can fit into Europe. That's just crap. Many can; you just wouldn't guess they were Iranian. Yeah, I know Olsonor posted light Iranians (but you likewise posted dark Iranians by and large). Yeah, I know Olsonor is not being correct about Azaris and Arabs.
Seizure you also seem to intimate that there is just some homoegeneous "Middle Eastern" look. Well, there isn't. I think there are clear differences between Iraqis and Iranians (notwithstanding that many Iraqis are of Iranian origin like Hussein al-Shahristani or Ibrahim al-Jafari) let alone between countries with more geographic distance between them.
PS I'm not saying Arabs are mulatto or black but they do have much more Negroid admixture than Iranians. From the genetic studies I have seen even Iraqis and Syrians have 50 times more SSA admixture than Iranians.
PPS Olsonor, the Iranian Miss Canada that you posted (Nazanin Afshin-Jam) is Persian. She was Miss Canada 2004. Miss World Canada 2005, Ramona Amiri, is also of (part-)Iranian origin. She is the one from the Assyrian minority. Although, you couldn't tell her apart from other Iranians anyway.
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Post by yigal on Oct 24, 2005 15:02:42 GMT -5
im pretty sure you are wrong, the map i saw had 4 very diff clusters among caucasoid groups
European Near Eastern (Iranian,Armenian,anatolian turk,circassian) Middle eastern (levantines where somewhere in between middle eastern and near eastern) North African
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Post by Yankel on Oct 24, 2005 15:40:25 GMT -5
Near Eastern = Middle Eastern, but includes the Transcaucasian region.
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Post by IranianLion on Oct 24, 2005 16:01:17 GMT -5
im pretty sure you are wrong, the map i saw had 4 very diff clusters among caucasoid groups European Near Eastern (Iranian,Armenian,anatolian turk,circassian) Middle eastern (levantines where somewhere in between middle eastern and near eastern) North African You've convinced me with that extensive critique. Cavalli-Sforza is one of the world's top geneticists. He (and his colleagues) conducted autosomal DNA tests on different populations. They displayed their results on a graph which I posted. In that map Iranians are clustered with Europeans and some distance away from Near Easterners. Here it is again. img484.imageshack.us/img484/131/cavallisforza0vb.jpgOnce again, this map is based on autosomal DNA results which provide a much better overall picture (taking into account many more genes) than Y-DNA or mtDNA or HLA (in which Greeks cluster with Africans ). So tell me how am I wrong? Please also post your map.
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Post by yigal on Oct 24, 2005 16:21:32 GMT -5
lol all i have to do is take a look at a towel head and an iranian and know that ure wrong lol i dont need genetics, btw whitest iranian i can think of is khatami, and we all know who he looks like
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Post by asdf on Oct 24, 2005 16:24:34 GMT -5
Don't get offended. MOST can't. PLENTY can though. Of course. I don't think we disagree.
Bullcrap. I implied no such thing. Iranids, Arabids, Meds, Alpinids, Armenids. Some mongoloid here and there. To say most Persians look nordic is ridiculous.
Here is the post I was preparing before my sister kicked me off an hour ago-- Why is it that you make all these assumptions? Why do you assume "irano" refers strictly to Persians of all Iranian groups?
There is no such thing, unless you care to make a new definition, which up until now you've refused to. Nor have you any genetic proof that Persians are closer to Nordics over other caucasoid groups.
Yeah, where her German mother and "Iranian" father had her. What's your point?
Who the is talking about Azeris?
"Afro-Arabs". That's a quote from you. Since you use "African" to mean negroid, I assume you're calling Arabs negroid.
Care to provide any evidence for this? As if it's relevant.
Not most of them.
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Post by IranianLion on Oct 24, 2005 16:35:06 GMT -5
@ Seizure
I agree that Olsonor's views are totally erroneous. Persians are not Nordic (apart from a few individuals) and you could not tell the difference between an Azari and a Persian.
I think the confusion stems from the fact that there are some similarities between the so-called Irano-Afghan and Nordic groups (e.g. both are dolicocephalic and have a rounded occupit). Of course, these similarities do not make Persians Nordic but they do exist. Physical anthropology is a lot more than skin and hair colour.
If I misrepresented your views then I apologise but I stand by the substance of what I wrote.
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Post by asdf on Oct 24, 2005 16:37:12 GMT -5
I said they existed. "Irano-nordoid" is the term I used. But there's more to physcial anthropology than metric similarity as well.
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