|
Post by yigal on Oct 22, 2005 19:37:11 GMT -5
You do realize you're talking to a German-French Jew (same thing, really), right? Most Jews consider themselves Jewish before anything. It is true that before the Shoah many German Jews were proud "Germans" (even though this was never really reciprocated by ethnic Germans, to say the least), though. Yet you yourself commented on how Persian Jews place a lot of emphasis on their Persian identity. I don't think that's entirely accurate. You see, most people are treated pretty poorly in Iran. That's why Iranians of all faiths have left in droves: Jews; Muslims; Christians; Bahai; Zoroastrians. Those that have the money leave the country. Jews were definitely among the most prosperous, having established themselves as merchants and what-not, so most could afford to leave. My family and I have left Iran so I don't blame my Jewish compatriots from doing the same. The best jobs and educational placements are given to individuals with revolutionary and religious credentials. I would not get access to these and nor would a Jew. Of course, Jews are treated with suspicion by the regime given the tense relationship with Israel. 13 Jews were falsely accused of spying for Israel a few years ago. Still, they were pardoned and I don't think that kind of thing has happened since. The only group in Iran that is systematically persecuted is the Bahai, who claim that their founder was the 12th Emam of the Shia tradition. I think some numbers would be useful. These are rough estimates. 45,000 Persian Jews emigrated to Israel from 1948 to 1977 under the Shah's rule when Jews faced no problems. Since the Islamic Revolution, 55,000 Persian Jews have emigrated, mostly to the US, leaving about 30,000 still in Iran. So about 25% of Persian Jews live in Iran, 35% live in Israel and 40% live in the US. (The total number of Persian Jews is 130,000 or less than 0.2% of the Iranian population.) Huh? Are you talking about Esther? Esther?! ;D Nor am I talking about Mordechai. I'm talking about Kourosh (Cyrus) who freed the Jews from their Babylonian Captivity. [/quote] he isnt going to understand either of those because it was The son of Achashveriroish who liberated the jews (Daryaves was his name) Cyrus is the predecessor of Achasveiroish who is the predesesor of Daryaves
|
|
|
Post by IranianLion on Oct 22, 2005 19:49:12 GMT -5
Also, note that, while Iranians are genetically and racially closer to ancient Jews than most Diaspora host populations, Persian Jews are more "mixed" than Ashkenazim. How is that possible? your confusing IRanians with Kurds who are iranic in language but their are some facts i want to put out there 1) "kurdish" territory is claimed by Aramaic Christians as being theres, Barkhu can elabirate on this,from what i understand the Aramaic Christians of iraq claim that Kurds are Iranized Aramaens,who became Iranized by the expanding persian empire in the same way that certain central asians speak Iranic tounges such as Dagestanis who speak tat despite their non iranic lineage. This Claim is given credibility by the fact that "kurdish" jews are Bi Lingual in Neo Aramaic and Kurdish, tho they often preffer neo aramaic which tho they calll a diff name (targumit) its simmilar to that of Iraqui Aramaic Christians 2) Abraham was born in Tera7, it is now known as 7aran an area claimed by kurds as kurdistan, and by Aramaic Christians 3) i would like to see Genetic Tests of Assyrians and Chaldeans compared with kurds i think the results might prove the Iranized Aramaens hypothosis It is true that Kurds not Persians were tested. But the Nebel et al. study was only for Y-DNA in any case (using an outdated nomenclature). I'm not aware of any autosomal or mtDNA studies. We don't have a full picture. The rest of what you write is speculation. I find it far-fetched to be honest. BTW, Dagestanis do not speak Tat.
|
|
|
Post by yigal on Oct 22, 2005 19:59:59 GMT -5
your confusing IRanians with Kurds who are iranic in language but their are some facts i want to put out there 1) "kurdish" territory is claimed by Aramaic Christians as being theres, Barkhu can elabirate on this,from what i understand the Aramaic Christians of iraq claim that Kurds are Iranized Aramaens,who became Iranized by the expanding persian empire in the same way that certain central asians speak Iranic tounges such as Dagestanis who speak tat despite their non iranic lineage. This Claim is given credibility by the fact that "kurdish" jews are Bi Lingual in Neo Aramaic and Kurdish, tho they often preffer neo aramaic which tho they calll a diff name (targumit) its simmilar to that of Iraqui Aramaic Christians 2) Abraham was born in Tera7, it is now known as 7aran an area claimed by kurds as kurdistan, and by Aramaic Christians 3) i would like to see Genetic Tests of Assyrians and Chaldeans compared with kurds i think the results might prove the Iranized Aramaens hypothosis It is true that Kurds not Persians were tested. But the Nebel et al. study was only for Y-DNA in any case (using an outdated nomenclature). I'm not aware of any autosomal or mtDNA studies. We don't have a full picture. The rest of what you write is speculation. I find it far-fetched to be honest. BTW, Dagestanis do not speak Tat. by daghestanis i mean people who live in that area, and as for "they dont" BS my best friend is a Daghestani Jew and he speaks RUssian and his mom tat from what i hear it is also spoken by muslims Tat belongs to Indo-European family, Indo-Iranian branch, South-West subgroup of Iranian group. This is info i got on the language Where the speakers live In Russia Tats (Northern Tats) live mainly in towns of the North Caucasus: [glow=red,2,300]in Daghestan [/glow]— in the cities of Derbent, Makhachkala, Buinaksk, Kizliar, Khasaviurt; in Kabardino-Balkaria in the city of Nalchik; in North Osetia — in Mozdok; in Chechnia — in the city of Groznyi. Southern Tats live in Azerbaijan. They make dense communities in the Apsheron peninsula (villages Balakhany, Surakhany and others), in the North-East of Azerbaijan (in the villages of Vartashen, Lakhidzh, Matrasa, Konakhkent, Afrudzha, Chichi, Gendab, Dagkushchu, Divichi, Siazan, Kilyazi and in the city of Kuba). A relatively big Tat community lives in Moscow.
|
|
|
Post by IranianLion on Oct 22, 2005 20:02:53 GMT -5
Yet you yourself commented on how Persian Jews place a lot of emphasis on their Persian identity. I don't think that's entirely accurate. You see, most people are treated pretty poorly in Iran. That's why Iranians of all faiths have left in droves: Jews; Muslims; Christians; Bahai; Zoroastrians. Those that have the money leave the country. Jews were definitely among the most prosperous, having established themselves as merchants and what-not, so most could afford to leave. My family and I have left Iran so I don't blame my Jewish compatriots from doing the same. The best jobs and educational placements are given to individuals with revolutionary and religious credentials. I would not get access to these and nor would a Jew. Of course, Jews are treated with suspicion by the regime given the tense relationship with Israel. 13 Jews were falsely accused of spying for Israel a few years ago. Still, they were pardoned and I don't think that kind of thing has happened since. The only group in Iran that is systematically persecuted is the Bahai, who claim that their founder was the 12th Emam of the Shia tradition. I think some numbers would be useful. These are rough estimates. 45,000 Persian Jews emigrated to Israel from 1948 to 1977 under the Shah's rule when Jews faced no problems. Since the Islamic Revolution, 55,000 Persian Jews have emigrated, mostly to the US, leaving about 30,000 still in Iran. So about 25% of Persian Jews live in Iran, 35% live in Israel and 40% live in the US. (The total number of Persian Jews is 130,000 or less than 0.2% of the Iranian population.) Huh? Are you talking about Esther? Esther?! ;D Nor am I talking about Mordechai. I'm talking about Kourosh (Cyrus) who freed the Jews from their Babylonian Captivity. Hmm. No, it was Cyrus that liberated the Jews. Cyrus took Babylon, annexed its empire and freed the Jews in 538BCE. Darius only ascended to the Persian throne in 521BCE. Cyrus was followed by his son Cambyses, who was followed by a cousin Darius. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_in_the_Judeo-Christian_tradition
|
|
|
Post by Yankel on Oct 22, 2005 20:05:18 GMT -5
I seem to remember hearing about vandalized synagogues and religious persecution, but, whatever you say. I know Zoroastrians and other minorities have it just as bad. Esther?! ;D Nor am I talking about Mordechai. I'm talking about Kourosh (Cyrus) who freed the Jews from their Babylonian Captivity. Err, okay. It's pretty common knowledge that we don't have a messiah - Persian or otherwise - as moshiach has yet to come. Your terminology threw me off. The only thing I could think of was the story of Purim.
|
|
|
Post by IranianLion on Oct 22, 2005 20:07:19 GMT -5
It is true that Kurds not Persians were tested. But the Nebel et al. study was only for Y-DNA in any case (using an outdated nomenclature). I'm not aware of any autosomal or mtDNA studies. We don't have a full picture. The rest of what you write is speculation. I find it far-fetched to be honest. BTW, Dagestanis do not speak Tat. by daghestanis i mean people who live in that area, and as for "they dont" BS my best friend is a Daghestani Jew and he speaks RUssian and his mom tat from what i hear it is also spoken by muslims Tat belongs to Indo-European family, Indo-Iranian branch, South-West subgroup of Iranian group. This is info i got on the language Where the speakers live In Russia Tats (Northern Tats) live mainly in towns of the North Caucasus: [glow=red,2,300]in Daghestan [/glow]— in the cities of Derbent, Makhachkala, Buinaksk, Kizliar, Khasaviurt; in Kabardino-Balkaria in the city of Nalchik; in North Osetia — in Mozdok; in Chechnia — in the city of Groznyi. Southern Tats live in Azerbaijan. They make dense communities in the Apsheron peninsula (villages Balakhany, Surakhany and others), in the North-East of Azerbaijan (in the villages of Vartashen, Lakhidzh, Matrasa, Konakhkent, Afrudzha, Chichi, Gendab, Dagkushchu, Divichi, Siazan, Kilyazi and in the city of Kuba). A relatively big Tat community lives in Moscow. Yes, Dagestani (aka Mountain) Jews speak Tat. But they, along with other Tat speakers, make up only around 1% of the Dagestani population. The rest speak various Caucasian languages. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagestan
|
|
|
Post by yigal on Oct 22, 2005 20:14:59 GMT -5
Esther?! ;D Nor am I talking about Mordechai. I'm talking about Kourosh (Cyrus) who freed the Jews from their Babylonian Captivity. he isnt going to understand either of those because it was The son of Achashveriroish who liberated the jews (Daryaves was his name) Cyrus is the predecessor of Achasveiroish who is the predesesor of Daryaves Hmm. No, it was Cyrus that liberated the Jews. Cyrus took Babylon, annexed its empire and freed the Jews in 538BCE. Darius only ascended to the Persian throne in 521BCE. Cyrus was followed by his son Cambyses, who was followed by a cousin Darius. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_in_the_Judeo-Christian_tradition[/quote]ok i concede i thought u mean to say Cyrus was Achashverosh from Megilas ester rather than talking of actual exile (achashveiroish saved jews from evil plan) u wrong are about tat and daghestan, also Bible says ruler before daryavesh(dono if thats ure darius) is achashveiroish son, he am jewish btw
|
|
|
Post by yigal on Oct 22, 2005 20:16:19 GMT -5
by daghestanis i mean people who live in that area, and as for "they dont" BS my best friend is a Daghestani Jew and he speaks RUssian and his mom tat from what i hear it is also spoken by muslims Tat belongs to Indo-European family, Indo-Iranian branch, South-West subgroup of Iranian group. This is info i got on the language Where the speakers live In Russia Tats (Northern Tats) live mainly in towns of the North Caucasus: [glow=red,2,300]in Daghestan [/glow]— in the cities of Derbent, Makhachkala, Buinaksk, Kizliar, Khasaviurt; in Kabardino-Balkaria in the city of Nalchik; in North Osetia — in Mozdok; in Chechnia — in the city of Groznyi. Southern Tats live in Azerbaijan. They make dense communities in the Apsheron peninsula (villages Balakhany, Surakhany and others), in the North-East of Azerbaijan (in the villages of Vartashen, Lakhidzh, Matrasa, Konakhkent, Afrudzha, Chichi, Gendab, Dagkushchu, Divichi, Siazan, Kilyazi and in the city of Kuba). A relatively big Tat community lives in Moscow. Yes, Dagestani (aka Mountain) Jews speak Tat. But they, along with other Tat speakers, make up only around 1% of the Dagestani population. The rest speak various Caucasian languages. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DagestanThey still am daghestani no? point being Persian got thru Caucasus anc Central Asia thru Empire Expansion,this no imply they Persian in orgin
|
|
|
Post by IranianLion on Oct 22, 2005 20:19:05 GMT -5
I seem to remember hearing about vandalized synagogues and religious persecution, but, whatever you say. I know Zoroastrians and other minorities have it just as bad. Everybody has it bad in Iran. Jews are mistreated somewhat but I wouldn't go overboard with it. www.sephardicstudies.org/iran.htmlEsther?! ;D Nor am I talking about Mordechai. I'm talking about Kourosh (Cyrus) who freed the Jews from their Babylonian Captivity. Err, okay. It's pretty common knowledge that we don't have a messiah - Persian or otherwise - as moshiach has yet to come. Your terminology threw me off. The only thing I could think of was the story of Purim. [/quote] That's not what Isaiah says. Thus says the Lord to His anointed [Messiah], to Cyrus [...] to subdue nations before him and loose the armor of kings, to open before him the double doors, so that the gates will not be shut: 'I will go before you and make the crooked places straight; I will break in pieces the gates of bronze and cut the bars of iron. I will give you the treasures of darkness and hidden riches of secret places, so that you may know that I, the Lord, Who call you by your name, am the God of Israel. For Jacob My servant's sake, and Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; there is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me, that they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things. Rain down, you heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness; let the earth open, let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together. I, the Lord, have created it.' [Isaiah 45.1-8] And... www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah/messiah_04.htmlwww.hope.edu/academic/religion/bandstra/RTOT/CH10/CH10_2D.HTMwww.mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/messiah.htmlwww.pbs.org/wnet/heritage/episode2/documents/documents_4.html
|
|
|
Post by Yankel on Oct 22, 2005 20:32:53 GMT -5
Sheezis. That's a completely different concept. That doesn't mean he is THE messiah. Tons of people were referred to as "messiah".
|
|
|
Post by IranianLion on Oct 22, 2005 20:37:47 GMT -5
Sheezis. That's a completely different concept. That doesn't mean he is THE messiah. Tons of people were referred to as "messiah". I did not say that he was the only Messiah. He was a Messiah. That is all I said. Of course he is not going to be the Messiah that Jews are waiting for having been dead for over 2,000 years.
|
|
|
Post by yigal on Oct 22, 2005 20:58:36 GMT -5
Sheezis. That's a completely different concept. That doesn't mean he is THE messiah. Tons of people were referred to as "messiah". I did not say that he was the only Messiah. He was a Messiah. That is all I said. Of course he is not going to be the Messiah that Jews are waiting for having been dead for over 2,000 years. lol i know another guy thats been dead as long and people insist hes the messiah
|
|
|
Post by anodyne on Oct 22, 2005 21:17:42 GMT -5
"You do realize you're talking to a German-French Jew (same thing, really), right? Most Jews consider themselves Jewish before anything. It is true that before the Shoah many German Jews were proud "Germans" (even though this was never really reciprocated by ethnic Germans, to say the least), though."
Jews may have been viewed poorly among Germans in general but the rate of intermarriage was quite high before Hitler's rise. I don't know what you being a "French- German Jew" has anything to do with this. Unless it's customary for Jews to keep a dossier on which of their brethren are marrying gentiles. Kind of in a saracastic mood. I blame the flu.
|
|
|
Post by anodyne on Oct 22, 2005 21:22:08 GMT -5
Also, if they consider themselves Jewish before anything as you say then can you blame people for being suspicious of Jews? I wouldn't want someone of Greek ancestry thinking of themselves as Greek first rather than American.
|
|
|
Post by CooCooCachoo on Oct 22, 2005 21:44:01 GMT -5
Is that wrong? Ok, how's this? Ashekenazi Jews are the surviving Y-Chromosome of Jews, and none of the mitochondreal DNA that Jewish women carry indicating a mixing of Jewish people with local women in Northern Europe. Or the definition I like is, Ashekenazi Jews are the ones who find Sephardics unacceptible to marry their children. lol how about this Ashkenazim = Eastern European and Central European jews Sephardim = Western European jews btw u have it backwards in europe its Sephardim and Western Ashkenazim(german,dutch ashkenazim) who thought Eastern ashknazim backwards and stupid, and did not marry with them altho Sephardim and Western Ashkenazim did especially in places like Holland and South france,where both populations where present I thought the Sephardim were originally the Jews who were expelled from Spain after the Conquistadores pushed the Moors out of the Iberian peninsula. I wouldn't call them Western-European Jews. More like North African. Ashekenazi refers to European Jews, or Jews that could pass for White.
|
|